How do you relate to being a maiden? A mother? Where are you on your maiden to mother journey?

The Mother archetype has nothing to do with bearing children. Instead, it’s a reflection of your hard-earned maturity and a deep connection with your most feminine self.

In today’s episode, I’m chatting with author and teacher Sarah Durham Wilson about the maiden to mother journey.

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In her work, Sarah guides women through the stages of life–the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone–as they unlock new truths about themselves and connect more deeply with their femininity. 

In a world full of Maidens, Sarah is shedding light on the power of Mothers. And in doing so, she’s helping us all unlearn the damage of our patriarchal society.

Join me in today’s episode as I chat with Sarah about her journey to uncovering her Mother archetype. We’re sharing the struggles that come with unlearning our societal conditioning and why it’s okay to feel fed up sometimes. Plus, we’re breaking down the performative and partriarchally-driven activism we see online and explaining the damage it can cause.

Listen to episode 381 now!

In episode 381 of the Embodied Podcast we discuss:

  • [3:15] Sarah’s relationship with The Mother and how she chooses to commune with the divine
  • [4:19] Connecting with nature as a way of connecting to The Mother
  • [9:46] Coming home to where you’re meant to be and recognizing when a place is calling you
  • [11:05] Finding joy and levity in life and recognizing it for the power that it is
  • [17:32] Why it’s okay to feel fed up with the world and how to embrace your “grumpiness”
  • [22:39] Taking a break from dating as a way of healing yourself and unlearning the culture
  • [29:23] Social media activism and why to “do the work in the dark”
  • [34:35] Humility vs. hubris and embracing the Mother instead of the Maiden
  • [39:35] The Maiden and The Mother archetypes and how to use them to understand the people in your life
  • [45:54] Why being a “Mother” isn’t about having children but instead about the mature feminine
  • [49:57] Building your community of mature women and Mothers
  • [53:54] The problem with men preaching “goodness” and why it’s not enough
  • [01:02:46] The danger of patriarchalised women and how to break the cycle
  • [01:06:09] How to be more mindful of men who try to teach women how to be feminine through submissiveness
  • [01:09:04] Sarah’s upcoming book launching June 7, 2022, Maiden to Mother

    Resources mentioned by Elizabeth in the episode:

      Quotes from this week’s episode on healing:

      • “If there’s no room for humor in your space, it’s not sacred or safe.” [00:11:37] Sarah Durham Wilson

      • “Take a nap and stop turning every moment of your life into a photoshoot and into a teachable moment.” [00:28:13] Elizabeth 

      • “When I think of coming into maturity, I think of becoming a human. And I think of coming into our humanity and also our humility.” [00:31:14] Sarah Durham Wilson

      • “The idea of the mature feminine is that a woman can tend to herself and her own cries in her own body, and therefore she has the tools to tend outward as well.” [00:45:35] Sarah Durham Wilson

      • “It’s not good enough that someone’s just not actively doing harm.” [00:57:51] Elizabeth DiAlto

      • “You don’t have to change women. You have to change the fucking culture.” [01:00:21] Sarah Durham Wilson

      How was this episode for you?


      Was this episode helpful for you today? I’d love to know what quote or lesson touched your soul. Let me know in the comments below OR share the episode on Instagram, tag me your stories @elizabethdialto, or send me a DM!


      About the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto


      Since 2013 I’ve been developing a body of work that helps women embody self-love, healing, and wholeness. We do this by focusing on the four levels of consciousness – physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.

      In practical terms, this looks like exploring tools and practices to help you tune into the deep wisdom of the body and the knowing of the heart, which I believe are gateways to our souls. Then we cultivate a new relationship with our minds that allows the mind to serve this wisdom and knowledge and soul connection, rather than override it, which is what many of us were taught.

      If you’ve been doing self-help or spiritual development work for a while, these are the types of foundational things that often people overlook in pursuit of fancier concepts that often aren’t practical or sustainable. Here, we will focus on building these strong foundations so you can honestly and thoroughly embody self-love. If you’re feeling it, subscribe to the show, and leave us a review wherever you listen from. You can also keep up with show updates and community discussion on Instagram here.


      Transcripts for Episode 381 “Maiden to Mother with Sarah Durham Wilson”:

      – Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode Number 381 of the podcast. Today we have Sarah Durham Wilson with us, and we are talking about her Maiden to Mother Work. I love this conversation so much. I’ve been waiting for a long time to have this conversation with Sarah. We approached it in several different contexts. We had an absolute blast, and we talked about a lot of things that many of you are really gonna be able to relate to. And I’ll be honest, some of you might feel a little triggered or uncomfortable. If some of the stuff hits you in places where you’re holding shame around how you have behaved in your maiden archetype, or if you’re still in your maiden archetype. And so I just wanna remind everyone before you listen, like none of this is a criticism, it’s a critical analysis, but it’s not a criticism and we’ve all been there. And, Sarah and I also shared so much of when we were in those phases ourselves. So, I just wanna say that ahead of time in case it kind of hits anyone in the guts, or if you are seeing anything reflected back to you in this conversation that you’re like, I definitely did that, or maybe I’m still doing that. And then all this beautiful conversation around the mother archetype, mature womanhood and femininity, it’s really juicy, it’s really fun. We’re just, our full selves with each other in this interview, which, I’m always my full self with whoever is here. But there’s an energy of evolution and appreciation in this conversation that I’m sure you all will pick up on. And I hope you enjoy that too. So let’s get into it. Sarah is back.

      – Hey, y’all.

      – I’m so excited. It’s been years.

      – It’s been years, and I had to cancel what I was doing before today ’cause I’m day two in my moon.

      – I’m on day three.

      – Hi, so I was like, I can crawl into the red 10 with Elizabeth, but otherwise, I’m not up for, I’m bunked and hungered.

      – Yeah, for real, I’m actually really glad to know we’re kind of in the same energy today. So this year on the podcast, my opening question, it’s kind of a couple questions. I’ll shoot you like the gist of the three and you can take it however you wanna take it. I’m loving asking people, what is your current relationship to God? What word do you use? I know God is not everyone’s word, but it’s a word I could use that people will know what I mean. And then, how you like actively engaging, connecting and relating, communing with the divine?

      – So I called the mother, that’s my relationship with the mother, pretty much constant. And really, when I’m not feeling well, that means I’m not in communion, I’m not in relationship that the outer patriarchal narrative has sort of taken over and then I’m just stressed and blocked and closed down. But I’ve been fortunate enough by some crazy act of fate or a miracle or whatever, all of it combined to be living on a pretty much a nature sanctuary right now by myself with my daughter. And following up from a few, like, I think we’re all getting these, most of us are getting diagnosed. Like, a lot of people I know are going through like neuro divergent diagnosis and ADHD, and, that led to all this sort of masking. But I just say like, we weren’t built for the patriarch, we weren’t built for this life. And you can call it whatever you want, but we’re not sick, it’s the culture.

      – Yeah.

      – So you can name it, but just like, let’s go to the root of the problem, let’s stop just, drugging and dosing all of us, which, we need, and we need, but why? Like the root is the patriarchy, the root is the culture that we’re in, the mattress little culture, the machinist culture that we’re in. And I don’t need to tell anybody that we’re living in really, really intense times. So, I’m on this Nature Sanctuary. And I hear the mother very, very well. If I just step outside, put my feet in the earth and, or even, we’re lucky enough to be on the beach and just walk out onto it.

      – Living on the water is everything.

      – Well, and unfortunately I’m now like acclimated to having a private beach in my backyard. So now I’m like, this is the only way to live. And, but this is a very temporary situation, we’re out, in Jews it’s like, not, it’s really not, there are other ways, and I will be in them, back in them.

      – It’s funny ’cause when I moved up to the Bay, when I moved into Oakland, it was the first time in like seven years I wasn’t walking distance to the ocean. And I realized what a, like a privilege, obviously that is, but also just something I need. And, when I traced it back, it’s funny. So, I grew up on Staten Island, which is an island, even though it’s like the denounced borough of the five, like the least exciting, it gets shit on. It’s funny, ’cause I watch, I love TV and I watch a lot of shows that take place in New York. And it’s like there’s this tone whenever people say Staten islands and I’m like, come on, no.

      – Yeah.

      – It’s ’cause we got the biggest landfill, it’s not that bad.

      – That’s true.

      – But like I grew up surrounded by water and just didn’t, like totally took that for granted growing up. But then when I looked, I’ve been doing so much more ancestral healing and work and connection with that the last few years. And I’m obviously like multiracial, multiethnic. I don’t even know how to describe, I’m like mixed, multi, it’s so many different things. And when I look back at all of my lineages, almost all of them were like right, water. And it wasn’t like lakes. It was like the ocean.

      – Yeah. Yeah. Lakes are cool too though.

      – What?

      – Lakes are a cool vibe too though. I love a good lake-

      – They really can be. But like, so like a large like energetic body of water, not like Oakland and it was Lake Merrit, I’m like, that’s not doing it for me.

      – No, you’re talking about like primordial mother energy. Like, yeah. That’s very different. She swallows all your small stuff, it just dwarfs it all.

      – Yeah, so yesterday I’m sitting in my living room, I actually was on a meeting with my community manager and I just see a freaking dolphin just flips up and out of the water.

      – Yeah.

      – It’s tail like, as its splashing back in. And I’m like, this is worth the rent. Like, how hard I have to work to like make this work is worth.

      – Yeah.

      – I’m fine with that.

      – It’s worth a dolphin flipping in front of you in the morning, yeah, magic. Yeah, nature is unfortunately such a privilege for most of the world and it is why worth, there’s no relationship with her because, and why people, they’re not in relationship to it’s that she is othered, nature is othered and they can turn their backs on her.

      – Yeah.

      – Of course you can, if you’re not in relationship with something, you just…

      – That’s the thing, I didn’t really grow up in any kind of relationship with nature. My dad liked to fish and stuff, he was more into like outdoor kinds of things, my mom, not so much. But it wasn’t until I moved to California, which was 2013, literally not that long ago that I started to have any major relationship with nature.

      – Yeah, well, you were only in Malibu for like two years, right? You were…

      – At first 2013, I moved out to Laguna Beach. I was dating someone, I met him in New York, but he was from there. Then I moved back up to LA for a little while, down to San Diego for three years. Then I moved to Malibu, I was only in Malibu for a year.

      – It wasn’t a real fit for you, right? It just…

      – No, like I actually, I do miss, being in Miami now, I miss Malibu because that raw, like even the ocean in Miami is right on like its tourism, everything is built up around it. So it’s not really like raw the way like the coastline in especially Malibu, parts of Malibu can be.

      – Yeah. Yeah.

      – And I really do miss that, but, and then I went, then I was just in like more like LA proper like Marina del Ray.

      – Yeah.

      – And you passed around, go ahead.

      – How did you end up switching to Miami, how’d you know?

      – In 2019, beginning of 2019, I came here, I was visiting some friends. And, the Latin culture, the vibe, like there was just something about it that I was like. Because I always knew my time in California was numbered. I kept trying to like, right, let me try this city, let me try this area, can I make this work? But I never felt like, okay, I could put roots down here.

      – Sure.

      – And so, I always kind of had it, it’s like when you’re dating and you’re with someone and you’re like, I don’t really think they’re the person for me, but it’s good enough, this works for now.

      – That’s how it is for me here. Yeah.

      – Yeah, and then, it was actually right around this time last year. I mean, you know how we roll, the nudges, the little divine inklings come and you’re like, okay. I guess it’s time. And for me, again, ’cause I had been doing some ancestral healing, I’m like, where can I go that’ll put me near at least some of my people? And 1/2 my family’s Puerto Rican, and or near a body of water that my actual ancestors communed on.

      – Right.

      – The same ocean, I was like, that’s, I’m not moving to like Italy.

      – Right.

      – So Miami, it was, and I need a vibrant, I need a Latin dance scene.

      – And, I mean, it’s so wonderful to see you in that. Are you still doing some comedy too or?

      – No, no, but, I just-

      – That was awesome.

      – Myself on this podcast.

      – What?

      – I just run my mouth and entertain myself on this podcast.

      – Sure. I love it.

      – I do my Saturday sillies on Instagram, that satisfies.

      – Did you see that? There was a meme yesterday that was like, and it had this like dog in a Sean’s costume and it was like, if your space is not, doesn’t have room for, like, it was fun but like if your space, if there’s no room for humor in your space, it’s not sacred or safe.

      – Yeah.

      – Because humor like, I mean, and you know what? For me, as soon as I say that, because narcissists have no sense of humor, they can’t be made fun of, they can’t make fun of themselves, they can make jokes about other people at their own expense.

      – Yeah.

      – But there’s no real lightness or levity or do you know what I mean? I mean, did any of the narcissists you dated have great senses of humor? No.

      – No, no, not only did he not have a great sense of humor, he would get so triggered when I was in that like vibrant, joy, hilarious space.

      – Shut it down. Shut it down. Yeah.

      – With other people. Like he could laugh with us, but it was very hard for him when, ’cause like you probably know what this is like. I’m not really a person who needs to be the center of attention, but I end up being the center of attention center.

      – But I can’t help it, and-

      – And I dunno what to tell you.

      – I have the same problem.

      – So it’s like, I wasn’t trying, right? But he was someone who wanted that.

      – Yeah, and that’s why they’re attached to you, to suck it from you.

      – Yeah. Yeah. But like, so that would be very triggering for him. And then I would notice, and this has happened to me a lot actually in various connections. There’s like been memes about this where it’s like, I thought I was in love with someone, but I realized the fun, the spark, the joy, the whatever, that was actually me.

      – 100, and like, I didn’t get projections until this last guy. I didn’t really, I mean, I didn’t really like, like you’d probably say like integrate, I didn’t integrate. I was like, what a fucking dud! That was all literally like a projector in eighth grade film class going onto that white piece of canvas or whatever, the slide that…

      – Well, you know what I think? I’ve thought about this a lot how, especially anyone who’s in like spiritual personal development, therapeutic spaces, so much of projection is spoken about, we’re only talking about the negative projections. We’re only talking about when we project our crap onto other people, right? We’re not often talking about what we’re projecting, like our best qualities onto other people.

      – Fucking brightness.

      – And then thinking that they’re way better than they actually are, because a lot of us do that too. That’s why women fall in love with the potential of a person.

      – Yeah.

      – Not just women, I think anyone probably does that too. So well, this is great.

      – I don’t know. I mean, I think we all do that. We don’t live in a realistic culture, we live in a fantastical immature culture that everything happens in the head, nothing happens in real life in the body. People sit around and watch, all these shows about the apocalypse and like rising up and changing. But nobody ever actually does anything. People watch and sit and they take shit in, but they don’t alchemize and then push back out with that, you know what I mean? And that’s a rite of passage, they don’t experience something then separate to alchemize that experience and then come back with the wisdom of that experience. Like they don’t mature. They don’t evolve. I mean, when we read children bedtime stories, and as the brain is like a sponge and they’re starting to learn, and maidens, as in my work, we would say, we receive that, we’re sponges, we’re just like open, tell us how the world works, tell us how to act, tell us how to be. But like the children don’t become adults and then be come main characters. They stay in that, you continue to tell us dad what to do, who we are, what’s happening. Do you know what I’m saying? To like the government? That’s how I feel right now. And it’s like, nobody is front, I call it the frontline feminine, no one is moving to the front lines, everyone is still sitting back as if something’s gonna change without their action. Does that make sense?

      – It makes a lot of sense. And I’m gonna disagree with you. I’m like the general.

      – I love that. Actually, I know you disagree with me about a lot, and, we still love each other.

      – Thank fucking God.

      – I know.

      – What would the world be if we all thought the same thing. I mean, some people are trying real hard to get it to be that way, but-

      – And they always will. Thank God for maturity when you start to think for yourself. It’s like, you don’t have to think the way I think to love you. I mean, if you like hate, if you hate people ’cause they’re or different race or things like that, we’re gonna have problems.

      – Yeah. Yeah. Right. I have no problem agreeing to disagree with people as long as it’s not about like, actually anything that oppressive or harms people.

      – About hate. Yeah. Exactly.

      – What I was just gonna say I disagree with, and it might just be semantics is like the everyone and no one. ‘Cause I actually see a lot of people, because we live in this weird social media age now, I think there’s way more people doing the types of things you’re talking about, but just like quietly humbly and in their own space without necessarily broadcasting it. Because it’s cool, I actually meet people and I’m like, this is awesome. Like, they’re doing their own little thing in their own space, in their own little microcosms, and that’s amazing, and I believe those things have really intense ripple effects. But for your point, I think I wouldn’t use the words everyone or no one, but certainly-

      – I wouldn’t either. Thank you for the edit.

      – Of course.

      – Yeah. No. I’m just fed up.

      – I know what you mean.

      – Yeah. I’m saying the majority of what I see.

      – Yes.

      – But, and I mean, where we are in the world is where we are in this hemisphere, which is like, there are signs of spring, there are signs of hope. And to get out of the underworld is to look for those and magnify those. I know that I just, I feel crone coming, I am very ready.

      – I love that you’re owning the crankiness. So last summer, I get everyone listening to this podcast is like, here we go again with the Caroline Mace. Like, I know I’ve actually never even read a Marion Woodman book, but I know that Marion Woodman is a name that you mentioned forever and always until the end of time. I go through phases, I don’t have like a Marion Woodman, but currently in my life, Caroline Mace is my Marion Woodman.

      – I see that for you.

      – I’ve just been binging on all her stuff and something, I was just talking to a friend about this yesterday, Caroline Mace just lets it rip, like she’s a curmudgeon, and I love it.

      – Yeah.

      – It’s like, there’s like not a lot of space like men can be curmudgeons.

      – They can do a lot of things we can’t do in this spiritual world.

      – And I’m like damn, I gotta be more curmudgeon. Not, I’m not, curmudgeon isn’t really in my personality ’cause I’m like too joyful, but there’s some shit I need to say that I have, I just need to let it rip like Caroline.

      – I think all women need to let it rip. I think we just, I mean, when that thing is like buzzing and humming in you, that means it’s coming from somewhere else and you’ve got support to say it. You know what I mean?

      – Yeah.

      – You can tell-

      – To say it. I love that.

      – Yeah. It does, I mean, you and I we were talking about energetics, about posting and I took a long time off Instagram and, I had a midlife crisis last year, which my people were like, here we go. But when I went like into a midlife crisis last year, I was like, I told my assistant, I was like post for me. And like, we were like losing people, like, ’cause Brit hates social media, she’s like, hi, like I don’t know how to post for Sarah. And I’m like, I never wanna be on it because it had won as far as what I do is I use it for the revolution or it uses me if I’m like, making it about me.

      – Right.

      – It uses me. If I use it for the revolution to get on with my like curmudgeon bullhorn-

      – I love it.

      – I’m good, but you know what I mean? And it’s a real mother moat too ’cause I don’t really need people to know what’s always going on with me, and they know what I look like, they don’t have to see my fucking picture every day. Like, and so, and I gotta say that, as I got older, the quality of my selfies for me really did start, I stopped liking them so much.

      – I love this about you ’cause we just like in mother and I wanna talk about this “Maiden to Mother” dream, I’m so excited for your book, I will read your book. Is we just don’t care.

      – I really, I forget to care.

      – We just, that is real. And it’s interesting ’cause I will say, moving to a place like Miami, Miami rivals Los Angeles in its like shallowness and fakeness, that’s one of the real downsides of Miami. Like I made a meme last weekend that was like every time I see another fake butt in Miami, like there is a lot of that artificial, like the Kardashian shape. Like, sometimes I’m walking down the street and I’m like, Billy Madison, I’m like, ’cause I turn around and there’s just like this alien, like that is not natural. And I do my best not to like, I don’t wanna judge people for that, but I’m concerned, like when I see that I’m always like, are you okay?

      – Yep. You don’t have to ask, you know, they’re not, I mean.

      – Right, right.

      – There’s this meme, that meme that floats around, and, the woman is standing in front of the mirror and she has this beautiful belly and she says, and she looks at her friend and she says, what should I fix first in my body? And the friend says the culture.

      – The culture.

      – Not you, not your body.

      – Yeah. Yeah.

      – I love a big, soft, beautiful, curvy ass, feminine body. And I am getting it once, so it’s good, that I love them. And yeah, I don’t, I used to treat my body kind of the way we treat the earth, like, bringing it to like the absolute, like how much can I push you, how much can I force you? What else can I get you to do? And now it’s like, how can I love you? How can I treat you?

      – Totally.

      – You wanna stretch for 20 minutes and call it yoga? Let’s do it. Let’s do it.

      – Count it. And, this is something for me that’s really shifted in my dating. So after I got out of that relationship with the narcissistic person, I took a year and 1/2 off altogether and then I had never done dating apps. I’m like, let me see. I’m like an armchair sociologist. Like, I’m just like, what’s going on with the people on the dating apps?

      – Perfect for you.

      – I have a lot to begin with, and a lot of tolerance for pursuing my curiosities and not, it’s not a sacrifice for me, you know what I mean? Like, nor am I like extracting myself.

      – Yeah.

      – And, that’s where the standup comedy came in, ’cause I’m like, this shit’s hilarious.

      – Right. Yeah, you had some good ones for-

      – I gotta tell jokes about this. Or at least the stories, I wasn’t actually great at writing jokes, but telling the stories like dope. But now, it’s interesting, I have like no real desire for dating because I’m like, nobody deserves me. Like, I dunno what to tell you, like other than that, there’s not like an appropriate, energetic exchange at this juncture that I can imagine.

      – Sure.

      – Especially with all my unconventional desires for my life, so…

      – And I really appreciate that stance. I mean, I tell people right now, look, I’m consciously celibate right now. I’m still unlearning, loving, patriarchalized men. I’m still detaching from the trauma bond of me and the absent father, of me and… And also I didn’t grow up with a man in the house. So who is going to inform my inner masculine, the toxic culture? I’ve got one in there, I’ve got a toxic motherfucker in there that I’m still working with. And, unlearning misogyny, unlearning ageism, unlearning that women are fragile and need to be saved. Unlearning that marriage is the end all be all for women. And so like just, and here’s the stigma, I’m 43. If I were a man, I’d be a bachelor, I’m a woman. I’m a spinster, right? And, I’m watching an interview with Jake Gyllenhaal, my age, same birthday, mutual friends. And they’re asking him, so you think it’s time to settle down and think about family now? Hey, at 43, you think so? And he’s like, yeah, I finally feel like I’ve gotten to a place where I’ve accomplished enough for myself where I can turn to that. And I’m like, same for me, but I can’t say it like that. I finally feel like I’ve gotten to the place where I’ve accomplished my dreams enough, enough so I can, buy a house and put some roots down. I’m I ever gonna become a domesticated woman that cleans the house really well and wins the PTA Award? No, I just mean like, so, I’m unlearning all this stuff, all this gender norms. In my house, girls were one fucking way. And like we did things one way and you gotta have to get married and you’re not complete without a man, and you have to always look pretty and you have to… And I’m not any of that. Like, those are not my rules. That’s not, that’s not. So, I’m in a place where I’m getting to know this beautiful inner masculine in me now as he does the work, as we do the work with him. And he’s a better match for me so far than anything I see out there. I’ve been through the ringer with some gorgeous fucking apex predator, asshole, narcissist for the last five years, so.

      – Yeah. My biggest issue is nobody is Jesus, so…

      – No, I know, well, he’s in here super strong for me.

      – I love me some-

      – There’s a guy I thought that was, but spoiler alert.

      – Spoiler alert. So, you mentioned ageism, and ever since I’ve crossed the threshold of 35, I’m 38 now.

      – You’re a tiny little baby.

      – I started to feel like, my age is now against like younger people? And, it’s actually your work talking about like Maiden into Mother that helped me to see like, no, it’s not, what kind of like repels me is that energy, it’s not necessarily the age, right? Because there are plenty of people, regardless of their chronological age who are also still kind of embodying, not only like the maiden energy, but kind of like the helpless maiden energy.

      – So there’s healthy maiden and then there’s patriarchalized maiden.

      – Yeah.

      – Wounded maiden. And you’re talking about patriarchalized maidens.

      – Yes, yes.

      – Yeah.

      – And what I find on the interwebs are these, so this particular flavor of person is the thing that repels me the most right now, which is still the, like, that’s so many patriarchalized, did I say it right?

      – Yeah, go on.

      – I’ve never known how to say it before. Patriarchalized wounded maiden but that are out here as these self-proclaimed conscious goddesses, leading these self-love revolutions. But I really, I’m looking at their thing and I’m like, you just need so much attention. And all of this is about, look at me, look at my life, look at my man, you can have everything we could be, but they’re still hustling, starting themselves out. Like, I mean, and I’m like, I just wanna be like, girl, take a nap, take a nap and stop turning every moment of your life into a photo shoot and into a teachable moment.

      – It’s so exhausting. I mean, I saw that you did like the big unfollow.

      – Yeah.

      – And I was like, she’s gonna unfollow me, let me check, she did, but that’s okay, she still loves me. And then-

      – I only kept nature like wales-

      – That’s what made me feel better, I was like

      – I kept places and nature. And like one lady who like her home organization shit is like porn for Virgos.

      – I knew you were gonna say that, I thought you were gonna say, it keeps me wet, but you said porn, so, . Okay, so, yeah, I can’t even go on there anymore, Elizabeth. I get on, and I’m like, it’s so much fuckery. And it’s just like, and it’s like, it used to be like a tiny dopamine hit, like, a little bump, but nothing, I get nothing from what a I’m seeing right now. Like, yeah, I mean, mostly I’m following black and indigenous accounts of black leaders that have been saying the smartest things that most white women like me, I mean, I couldn’t even dream some of this leadership that exists within the black and indigenous community, which they’ve been saying the things that I’m only dawning on now, and I’m mad respect and I’m learning a ton. And, I’m pretty disappointed in the average white women’s spirituality that we’re seeing right now. I’m very disappointed about what happened, I guess, is last year, there was a lot of, sort of like, there was a lot of tokenism and pretending to know all about, pretending to care about anti-racism, doing the right thing because you’re looked at, and then sort of this, is it over? Can we go back to centering ourselves again? I was part of that and I think, it was a good start, but with no follow through, and that is very maiden. Maidens can’t move things all the way through, they’re the morning of the sunrise, but they don’t bloom. And to bloom is to pollinate and be part of the ecosystem. And to bloom is to offer the gifts and also to do the work in the dark, you can only bloom if you do the work in the dark. So now I’m sort of at this very, when I think of coming into maturity, I think of becoming a human and I think of coming into our humanity and also our humility.

      – Yes.

      – So, I’m in a big place of, I’m trying to have a conversation with, for the most part, white women, there are, not all, but who’ve caused the most harm in the spiritual communities. And I’m trying to, as we say, the feminine goes first, I’m trying to go first and say, hey, I see all these things I’ve been in, I’ve been complicit with. There was no map, I’m not blaming any of us, but once we see it, we have to name it, and we have to do better.

      – Yeah.

      – And I think it’s kind of working. I think the call in approach is, that works for someone like me, I mean, who wants to be, I wanna say like, can we have a really big conversation?

      – Yeah, and an ongoing conversation, because that’s one of the things that I think is so unreasonable about people trying to do that kind of work on social media alone. I actually pulled back, I was doing my much more of that, like 2017, 2018, 2019. And then I’m a kind of person where when it kind of blew up and everyone was jumping on that in 2020, I was like, I’m actually gonna back off.

      – Of course.

      – ‘Cause I’ve been doing, like, I stopped podcasting in 2020, I took the whole rest of that year off in like March. And I was like, you all can play and do this now, I’m gonna continue to integrate what I’ve been doing. And then, we’ll come back and we’ll speak from a more integrated place when I’m ready. ‘Cause that like the performativeness, well, and then the other thing is like, then there’s this-

      – That’s just what I thought. Yeah the performative-

      – And there’s this pressure on social media to be showing people, ’cause people are out here saying, you need to show us your receipts, how do we? And it’s like, listen, but then that’s also quite some kind of patriarchalized conditioning too, to feel like you need to like hand in your report card.

      – Sure, I mean, again, none of us have ever, we’ve never been here before in these times we are. And now we’re pulling back a bit from cancel culture, we’re like a, more of like, a calling in and accountable. Like, we’ll never be this big, beautiful village together on social media where we bring people in and they, and we lovingly, we’re not gonna do that. But yeah, it was an exhausting time. And it was really telling, that race was a fad in this work, was really disappointing to see. And to see who, I have some women in this world, and I would call you one of them that, they continue to hold a bar of integrity while we see it slipping all around us. And, I’m really proud to know you and those women.

      – Thanks. This thing that you said about humility, actually, I do these Sunday shoutouts now and I posted something on Sunday, and then I was like, I don’t have the energy to leave this up today and I took it down. Maybe next week or something, I’m just gonna have a regular Sunday. So, without posting something activating on the internet. So, the thing I was really thinking about, and it was this, I see this, you mentioned it as a difference between like maiden and mother is coming from a place of genuine humility versus coming from a place of wanting to like outrun or overcompensate for past humiliations.

      – Yeah. Did I say that?

      – No, that’s what I was just talking about that on Sunday. I don’t think that’s like, somebody somewhere has had to have spoken about this, I don’t think this, this is not a new thing.

      – Right, well, I usually think of, I work in the opposites and so the opposite of humility would be hubris and the idea of Icarus, like, well, I can fly that high to the sky, like thinking you’re the only one that’s ever existed. And, like you don’t listen to your elders, you don’t listen to, you have no inner counsel, you have no real true outer counsel yet. I mean, friends in your twenties, I mean, mine like fucked all my boyfriends behind my back and another one like told all my secrets. Like patriarchal friendships and, young women when we’re bred and to compete against each other and tear each other down and see each other as competition and enemies and stuff. Like, before I came into mature friendships, I really couldn’t trust anyone around me, and you couldn’t trust me either. And so, now I think, also, the safety of the mother and how unsafe, like a lot of these women are like on, with their trauma and that they can’t really hold space. And the thing that they need to be, they need to be seen because they still haven’t seen themselves. They need to be heard ’cause they still haven’t heard themselves. So you can tell the difference, when I walk into a room, like you were saying, and we were kind of joking, but like I don’t need to be centered, I can hear myself, I can hold myself, I can take care of myself. I don’t need to go fix me to everyone hear me, see me, ’cause I can do that. But that’s what you’re seeing playing out. And you’re also seeing the patriarchy saying, your worth is your looks.

      – Totally.

      – And it’s not the point of us.

      – Have you noticed, my vision has changed, as I get older and I’m like-

      – We’re literally need readers now, so…

      – I mean my like perceptual vision, like I just think, most of my friends are either my age or older, like onto or in their fifties even, they’re so stunning. I actually feel so bad for like most of my friends are heterosexual. I feel quite bad for the men who are missing out on being with these like phenomenal mature women. I’m like, you all have no idea how this kind of woman would just like revolutionize your whole life ’cause you’re too busy, like still attaching your worth to having some like young, hot thing on your arm. But like, and it’s not just like, that’s like one little, very small context to put it in. But even the culture, the way people miss out on like the wisdom, like being in the presence of a secure person who isn’t like unconsciously manipulating everyone because they can’t, like you say, hold themself, see themself, hear themself. And they’re needing that from others. And I do experience this, this is why it’s not, I love again, working with the archetypes because this isn’t this transcends age. Like I have plenty of like wounded maiden friends or acquaintances, I wouldn’t call them my friends who are still in their forties and fifties as well.

      – I talk about that all the time. And I mean, I have a woman in my teacher’s training and she’s 23. And so we’re talking about maiden mother teacher’s training. And, so this is the youngest woman we were having, we usually have like 23 to like 66 or something. And I was like, Madeline on the day, ’cause we were joking about, we were like old, we were joking about what we were up to at 23. And then Madeline was like, actually I am 23. And we were like, what? I was like, I thought you were 45. ‘Cause she’s like, hello, And so that speaks to your point. And this woman has been initiated since she was born, like all kinds of diseases and loss. And, I mean, she’s been in the underworld, 23 lot years, yeah.

      – So would you mind giving us, we keep throwing away these, throwing around, not throwing away these terms, maiden and mother. And I know we’re dancing around archetypes and I’m sure plenty of people listening, like have the context to know, but could you give us kind of a little breakdown of maiden?-

      – Actually, people ask me every day, so you have to.

      – I figured it, I typically try not to ask people the shit that other people probably ask ’em all the time, but for the context of our conversation, I think it would actually be quite good.

      – Let’s just sleep. Yeah, no I was gonna say, and I wasn’t complaining about saying it every day. I was saying it really does have to be said, it just has to be said it’s from, archetypes are a new language for a lot of people and I really wanna spread them to as many people as I can ’cause I find them so helpful. My goodness! They saved my life. So I think like a good 101 place to kind of start is if you’ve seen, the three moon symbols or it’s called the Triple Goddess. So, you’ll see the waxing moon and then you’ll see the full moon and then you’ll see the waiting moon-

      – I have that on my foot as a tattoo.

      – So, I’m a moon on my head. So, I’m worried more. So that’s Celtic, that’s the Celtic, it’s showing the feminine wheel in Celtic’s edition of a woman’s life. And so, or you could even say this, you could say, the feminine energy in a human so that it starts off very spring like, or the spring is also related to the waxing moon or the bud, the flower before it’s bloomed, when it’s really just in its like protective armor. And it’s trying to push up and find its place in the world, and it’s sort of, that’s a really important time of individualization, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that healthy maiden push out into the world, energy, go after what she wants, go find herself, try on all the hats, try on all the roles, try on all the relationships. This is a really important, what about me, me, me, me, me? This is a really healthy time to say, who am I? What do I love? This is self focused and you have adults around you to care for your needs, protect you, help you in the happy village, not in patriarchal America, You’re a very, so this is a really healthy time of becoming or waxing. And even if you think about the waxing moon, it’s a time when your thoughts, I don’t like to use the word should, but it’s helpful if your thoughts are thinking of everything you do want and not what you don’t, because this is the time where you’re moving towards your life, right? You’re moving towards things and you’re reaching out. And this is, so you’ll notice that when I say reaching out, that’s a really normal thing for a child to do. Hey, Elizabeth, I need something, can you gimme something? I can’t reach this. Hey Elizabeth, can you help me with this? I don’t know how to do this. It’s a really important this… But of course, when you’re gonna see that reaching out energy at 35, 30, you have what I need, you can fix me, it’s gonna be very unnatural, right? So, then naturally we move into mother or the mature feminine, and around, we should be really around, like in our times 35, in our ancestors time, 25, 21 to 25, right? Because the life expectancy was about 60 when we’re talking about when people really worked with these archetypes. So you come into summer, you come into your bloom. That little bud we’re talking about has found her place, she has rooted in deep, she has nurtured herself, she is like, she’s rooted and planted and self sourced. And then she rises up and offers herself in her fullness. You think about the moon comes into fullness, we come into summer. So this is the summer of a woman’s life. This is when she comes into her power. She finds her sovereign voice. She finds her sense of home in herself. She is clearly aligned with her purpose. She is an offering, if you think about the great mother tree, so deeply rooted, and then the fruits just naturally fall from her. And then she is rewarded by the ecosystem with the old fruits, the leaves, her old selves dying, becoming compost, rising up. So every year the mother, she grows stronger and stronger and stronger until she peaks. And then she begins to wane the way the moon wanes, the energy begins to descend back into itself the way the flower slowly returns to the earth. And then we have fall in our return. Now, Jane Hardwicke Collings down in Australia has added Maga, which is a very, obviously that word can be triggering for a lot, so you can call that Empress. So that’s sort of like the, when we come into our golden stage. And so there’s, I do believe that we are missing that season, I think, there’s four seasons in the gray mother, why wouldn’t we have four seasons in our life? I don’t think women are quite ready to go into crone and they’re-

      – Yes.

      – So there’s this missing Empress.

      – Okay, I love this ’cause I do, I have a handful of like dear friends who are in their fifties and I’m like, you’re not a crone but you’re not a mother. Like you’re beyond like this transition. I love this Empress. Yeah.

      – So the idea of the mature feminine is that it is a woman who is self individualized, who is fully formed. And also she can tend to herself and her own cries and her own body. And therefore, she has the tools to tend outward as well.

      – And this, if we wanna put this in like self-help cliche is, pouring from a full cup rather than the empty cup. So I’m remembering, it popped into my mind when you were still talking about the maiden was, this was at some point in the last seven months, ’cause it was since I moved to Miami, a couple of my friends here have landed, we’ve landed in Miami, none of us had lived here. We never knew each other before. And it’s kind of this incredible joy to have old friends who live, now we in the same city, they have kids. I get to be part of their village, which I love. And it’s actually funny ’cause one of their daughters is always asking me about my tattoo on my foot, my triple moon. And she drew a self, I have it on my fridge, she drew a self, I was over there, we were drawing last weekend. She drew a self portrait and she gave self my tattoo.

      – Eva does that.

      – That, the moons on her.

      – So cool.

      – And, it’s so fun. And it’s so sweet. And, but I was remembering how another friend of ours had tagged me on a post and I tagged you, not to like call you into the conversation, but where this woman was going hard, not speaking archetypically but being like maidens don’t have children, mothers do.

      – No.

      – And, I was like, and this other friend was like, tagging me to be like, I see you, Elizabeth DiAlto, being the maiden in all your mother friends’ lives. And I was just like-

      – No, you don’t have it at all…

      – And I was like, I get, the nature of this is, was kind of like, thank you for the aunties in our lives or whatever. But there was also this gross condescending, not by my friend, I knew her intention, but the woman who wrote the post, this like gross condescending women treating women less than who don’t have children. And I’m like, I could not possibly be more of a mother in this phase of my life or typically, like… And honestly it was, my maiden time was so hard and I was like, I’m rarely like offended. But I was like fuck this. I was like, no, I was like, there’s no, it was hard one, and I graduated from my maiden stage so I am a child free mother, thank you very much. And that’s why I tagged you, ’cause I was like, I prefer to look at this through the lens like Sarah of Magdalene looks at this.

      – Thank you. Yeah. I mean, Elizabeth, I remember the night that I was actually going to have a biological, physical, baby and I kept Googling like maiden to mother, maiden to mother. And all I saw was like, gather your white friends and put flowers in each other’s hair. And I was like-

      – The belly…

      – And I was like, no, how do I grow the fuck up?

      – Yeah.

      – How do I become what I needed as a kid and what this kid is gonna need and what this fucking world needs me to be. So it’s like, so, for me, whenever I never think, you could tell when I answer that question, I never even thought about saying anything about children. It’s like, we need strong fucking mature confident women on the front line, that’s what I’m talking about.

      – Yeah, and I’m doing some rebranding on my website and she just like-

      – We’re both using Luna.

      – We are. She’s amazing. I’m so excited.

      – So good.

      – And, we’ll put a link to Luna in the show notes too, if anyone looking for-

      – You will not be disappointed.

      – Awesome branding person who gets like spiritual mystic people. Because, that’s always been hard for me in my business of like finding like branding or marketing people who like that very the spiritual person. But that’s something I’m really feeling into is I’m like updating my copy and stuff that I feel like I love, like one of the things that I love about my community is like, it’s mature community. Like they wouldn’t resonate with that maiden stuff that we were talking about earlier. And again, like, I don’t say it, I say it repels me just in the sense of like, I’m not the audience for it. I don’t have disdain for it, I’m not begrudging it. I’m just like, that’s just like, not, it’s just dissonance. But I love, I love being in this mature.

      – Totally pat yourself on them back. The reason you have mature women around you is ’cause you are, that’s why they’re coming to the table.

      – I think I feel so good ’cause it’s like, damn I have really grown up, ’cause look at these women like I have-

      – Girl. I know the feeling.

      – Yeah.

      – I love the women’s, my community now is like, I could put my head in any of them velvet laps and get my head still and get that good mother wisdom, I mean any of their laps.

      – Yeah. I love that. And I think back, I mean, years ago, some of my spaces where people were just like spewing when I was still learning how to hold space and people were just coming in and like using Facebook groups, like it was trauma therapy and I let them, because, like, no, that was not appropriate, but like we were growing together.

      – We didn’t know. We didn’t know.

      – We didn’t know. And I mean, luckily I do trust the mystery. I’m like, listen, if that’s what was happening at the time, harm may have been being done, but that’s what needed, like we all had to learn. There’s still this cosmic orchestration that’s always freaking happening.

      – Yeah. But…

      – But that’s what I’m saying, it’s like talking about that feels really good to me. Like, ’cause then you just reminded me like, yeah, we used to have that shit going on on Facebook stuff too. Like, it feels good to say, we didn’t know we were trying our best, we were… And, you and I, I know, we’re not bad people, we’re really devoted. And just, I mean, I think, and our guides just throw us out in the fire, they’re like, go teach. And we’re like, back then, we’re like gonna do our best, but shit’s . I mean, I’ve been teaching for 11 years now and that’s why I can be such a cranky donkey about what I’m seeing, but, I’ve been doing it for 11 years. And that’s why I’m really fucking good at it too.

      – Yes.

      – ‘Cause it took 11 years.

      – Yes, yeah, and this is the other thing I love about the maturity is like the, also the ownership of like, yeah, I’m pretty masterful of at this now.

      – Yeah.

      – But that’s not like an ego, it’s not like I’m the best or, you know what I think is funny, I love and I see this in like some of this maiden people, like we have some of the best people in the world, how do you know? You haven’t been to the world, you haven’t worked with all the people, like you don’t maybe, but like, even to say stuff like that, it’s like what you said that word hubris, like, yeah. It’s like, and also who cares?

      – Well, I mean-

      – Is it really the best in the world?

      – Side note we were talking about deidaism this morning and we were talking about, I mean, and that book is still selling, and I’m like-

      – Wait, what book? Name the book so people who don’t know, know.

      – “The Way of the Superior Man.” So even saying I’m superior like that we have the best people. That’s supremacy in my view.

      – It’s literally in the word.

      – Yeah. Yeah. It’s a minefield out there right now.

      – And so this was the other thing that I had written down that I wanted to make sure we touched on together.

      – Yeah.

      – Which I know we’re both very passionate about, which is men teaching women how to be feminine. Now, before we open up the can of worms, the thing I I wanna say is, of course, someone who’s in their mature expression of their own like masculine energy, their archetypes, wherever they are on their journey might have some value to share around their experience of different flavors of women femininity, but like to be, to think that, ’cause I can certainly, we could talk all day about how men show up and how it affects not only us, but women and all these different women we’ve worked with. And we would certainly have valuable things to add to the conversation, but to put myself out on the world and be like, I’m gonna teach these men how to be men, would be gross.

      – Wait, sorry, this is how my ADHD brain works. It put a pin in something you said before that, so I have to come back there-

      – Great, come back.

      – The piece about what you’re seeing out there, and, this is how it works, mastery. And then you said the ownership of mastery. So this is something on patriarchal purpose why we throw women away right when they should be coming into maturity or their summer, or their mother is because that’s when they do reach mastery, right? That’s when they become masters, right? So that’s when they’re the most dangerous. And that’s why they have-

      – The most dangerous.

      – You have to be exiled at that time.

      – Yeah.

      – So anyway, okay, yeah, men teaching women how to be women-

      – Or how to be feminine specifically. ‘Cause there’s something about that flavor that…

      – So what we’re finding here, Elizabeth is that men are teaching women how to be submissive.

      – Yes. And they’re telling them-

      – But they’re calling that surrender.

      – And they’re telling them to put away your sword during the apocalypse because it’s not sexy and you shouldn’t have a power and a purpose if you wanna turn your man on for him to sex with you, even if-

      – He’s acting like a fucking dildo.

      – Even if he’s one of those men that’s in probably one of your white men’s spiritual programs who is only called a good man because he’s not actively harming anyone. Is he making stand? Is he unpacking anything? Is he actively standing in the way of harm for anyone but himself?

      – Ok.

      – Is he giving up any power?

      – I’m out.

      – Right?

      – We need, you’re just gonna repeat those things because it’s so important. Good is not, just not actively harming anyone. Like the cookies and the kudos that we wanna give to men who aren’t rapists.

      – Did I bypass your whole question?

      – No, you didn’t. This is great. ‘Cause I like toss the question out and then whatever wants to happen happens. But this point is so important and I really want this to anchor in, especially for heterosexual women. Although obviously we have the full spectrum of all the desires here, but it’s important.

      – I think for CIS had women to hear this message, it’s really important, ’cause y’all are, there’s a lot of manipulation happening, there’s a lot of veils you can’t see through. And if you, I can’t really, I’m taking on so much and my nervous system is exhausted ’cause of the battles each of us fights in our little corner.

      – Yeah.

      – But like, always search the origin of any lineage that you’re entering.

      – Right.

      – I didn’t used to do that, it’s really important. I mean, I want you to know your own lineage. I want you to know your own ancestry. And I want you to know your own origins. But I also want you to know the lineages that you’re walking into.

      – So these men, it’s not good enough that someone’s just not actively doing harm.

      – I just said that the other day. Yeah.

      – I mean, the follow up things that you said, I just wanted to overemphasize them and we will put them into a quote on the show notes page, which is, are they actively standing in the way of harm? Are they giving up any power? Are they using their power for good? And what else did you say? It’s not just that they’re not doing-

      – And then are they giving up any? You said that. Yeah. I mean-

      – Unpacking, that’s what you said.

      – Are they unpacking it? Are they unpacking anything?

      – And the other thing is, and I have a great example of this, it’s, do they become defensive when you ask them to do more than they’re doing, then the bare minimum that they’re doing? Because again, goodness is not enough. I know a lot of good men who aren’t doing their part.

      – Yeah.

      – A Part that they certainly have the capacity, resources, intelligence, ability to be doing. And to me, that’s very unattractive, not just in a partner, in a friend, in anyone in community, whatever.

      – Thank you. Yeah, I don’t, I’m really disappointed with what I’m seeing out there with white, cis-head men’s leadership. It’s basically saying, I understand there’s a patriarchy and not doing an anything else, but it’s basically taking money from women to tell them how to be feminine. And she’s in here, there’s no paying someone. I mean, I guess I have so many thoughts that, I mean, I really want like a counsel on this. Like, I think it’s really dangerous. I think you and I have both, I’m unraveling from 10 years of this kind of thought. And it has been really, really, really not helpful to me.

      – Yeah.

      – I blame myself a lot for toxic men and their behavior because I was told through this work, that I was the problem because I was closed off and too much like a man, but I’m just trying to been, at the time, I was just trying to survive in the patriarchy. And so, my fault that I don’t feel safe, I didn’t feel safe in my mother’s womb. My grandmother didn’t feel safe. And I’m like, this goes back to like, we’re not safe because of the culture. Again, you don’t have to change women, you have to change the fucking culture.

      – Yeah.

      – You don’t have to make us more open in the patriarchy. You have to change the patriarchy so it’s safe for us to open.

      – Furiously, so the ex that we were talking about earlier, he was a David Deida guy. He intensives, he’d bit like whatever. And I remember being like, how am I supposed to be soft and surrendered when you’re over here behaving like a child?

      – Exactly.

      – What about that makes him-

      – They’re not doing, any maturity work for the men.

      – Right.

      – And it’s just that women need to be more open as the bombs fall on their children.

      – And inspire the men. No, no, no, no, no, no-

      – Nourish them, feed them, and don’t be in your power and don’t be in your purpose around him.

      – Right, because, and this is like, this is the biggest mind fuck for me. It’s like, if you’re in your purpose, you’re a masculine essence, and I’m like, what?

      – That’s where I’m out, I’m out. It’s like my purpose is my entire soul.

      – Listen.

      – Like you can’t take it from me.

      – My God it’s-

      – I tried to lay it all down for men for 10 years.

      – Yeah. That polarity stuff. And you know what? One of the things that really helped me to like really snap out of that is I have just a couple of friends who are really powerful, straight up direct women. And they have partners, and the things that their male partners loved about them was how direct they were. I had a couple of friends share this experience of like, oh my God, he loves that he does not need to know where he’s staying, he doesn’t have to play guessing, I’m just me, and I’m like, thank God.

      – You just said it. I’m just me. That’s who the person is gonna fall in love with. I was like trying to read the Deida script all the time. Like now what do I say? And it was so false because I also have like very, I have low spectrum onto somebody be like, this is what I have to say in this relationship to make it work. And now it’s like, wait, the only times I’ve ever truly been in love was when he met the freak, the full freak and was like, I want some of that freak. So it was like, there was, and she was not doing the tantra right, she wasn’t… I didn’t like wet and open the whole time. I had some really bad jokes and they were into that so.

      – Yeah, it’s interesting, and then like you’re saying the patriarchalized women, the women who’ve internalized the patriarchy and the misogyny who then, who were buying into it, hook, line and sinker. And when you wanna be like, hey, this doesn’t resonate for me, it’s your fault.

      – It’s your fault.

      – You’re in resistance. You don’t wanna soften. You’re not surrendered. You’re not feminine. And it’s like, no, bitch-

      – You’re in your masculine.

      – To this crap anymore.

      – Yeah, no, it’s literally because my body is too wise now. I’m 43, you were talking about how your sensitivity by 35, wait till you’re fucking 43. It’s amazing, I mean, you just walk around like an old tree and you hear everything and like birds land on you. And like, it’s like, I just like, you just can’t be like, you can’t be like…

      – You had me in the birds just land on you. I gotta tell you, I’m gonna be 39 this year and I’m so pissed I’m not gonna be 40 yet.

      – Girl, I feel you, enjoy this last year.

      – I know, I’m like, how am I not 40 yet?

      – I don’t know, but you’d be one of those who I’d say I’ve never, like you’ve always had this wise old soul in you, you’ve always been, I think first time we ever talked, we both cackled. We have those like ancient witch cackles, that like the whole bar, like the music turns off.

      – Story of my life.

      – But what I wanna say, all joking aside, is you were in an abusive relationship. I was in an abusive relationship. I was deep, and I am not gonna say that I wasn’t. I had stacks of Deida books by my bedside at that time. And every time he was more terrible to me, I would say, what am I doing wrong? And I would open it. How do I seduce him into this? How do I, if I give him a blowjob, he’ll forgive me, I’ll be a sex priest, all of that stuff. And he’d be like, yeah, honey, this is how you do it. You just have to always seduce me. And I mean.

      – I’ll share someone I used to be friends with actually worked quite closely with David Deida. She was in a relationship and she was much older than me. And whenever she would talk about her relationship, ’cause this was after I’d come outta mine, I’d be like, this sounds very abusive, but they’re working with David Deida and she’d be like, well, David said, and David said. And it wasn’t the book, it was like the man, David.

      – Yeah.

      – And her partner, and I was like, this just sounds very shitty. And, but, and what I would always notice was she was always like, pretzeling herself into, well, how do I like, how do I get into my yearning? How do I let him feel? I’m like, how about you tell this dude to take a fucking hike and stop treating you like shit.

      – Yeah.

      – When do we get to have that conversation?

      – Yeah. The, how do I get into my yearning? I just, yearn for a new world.

      – That’s my yearning. That’s my yearning.

      – I mean how do I get into my yearning for this patriarchalized man who’s treating me like shit? No.

      – No. Yeah.

      – So, I mean, it’s dangerous.

      – Yeah.

      – And it’s time.

      – Really like beyond time, so tell us, I think I have this scheduled right around, when’s the date that your book is coming out?

      – Well, it got pushed back to June 6th or June 7th.

      – Okay, so we can…

      – Yeah.

      – We can wait. I mean, well this is still conversation so people can listen to this logistical conversation. Do you want us to wait or do us to publish the interview and let people get into their yearning for your book?

      – Let’s do that. Let’s do that. But there was something we were talking about and then I know we both have to go, but there was something you were, you’re talking about your friend, yeah, who was telling you, yeah. Yeah, so what I wanted to say about that, Elizabeth is, I remember going to, I have two mentors, and mentors are a privilege, but I find them vital in my work, and they’re elders, they’re both in their, one 70 and one 60. And, I brought a question about this work that you and I are talking about, David Deida’s work, to both of them mid last year. And I wanna tell you two crones, I brought it, they wouldn’t even let me, as soon as I kind of talked about what I was talking about which was men teaching women tantra, men teaching, if anything, Margot Anand, that crazy woman in her seventies that teaches from the south of France and like a hammock, I love her.

      – I dunno who that is-

      – She’s a , because it’s all about shocked, it’s all comes from bliss for the feminine. So anyway, they both wouldn’t even let me carry on with the question because they knew I was talking about this old dogmatic trick of men teaching women to be submissive through the lens of tantra. And they said we don’t, whatever you’re bringing to us, both of them individually, and what I realized was I haven’t seen any very mature women in that space, I’ll tell you that, I’ve mostly seen maidens.

      – Okay, so we actually took a little pause ’cause Sarah and I needed to have a tangent about, we needed to process something that doesn’t need to be aired out on podcast. So, what we do wanna up the whole conversation and also just that conversation about, women being more mindful about being told how to be a woman by men.

      – Yeah.

      – And like just tuning into, is someone really asking you to not be who you are, like, are you contorting yourself in hopes of being loved, accepted and approved of?

      – Yeah, ’cause it’s not an outside job ladies, it’s an inside job.

      – It’s an inside job. Let your cranky auntie and your care bear, mama bear remind you, not how old you are.

      – Yeah, you can’t buy love for yourself. You can’t it’s free.

      – Right.

      – Okay.

      – Okay, so book’s coming out in June is the name of the book, “Maiden to Mother” or are you calling it something else?

      – “Maiden to Mother: Unlocking Our Archetypal Journey into the Mature Feminine.”

      – Do you have like, can you like send me a secret copy that I could read before it comes out? Or do I have to wait to-

      – Brit has them all, absolutely.

      – Yes. Great.

      – Yeah, my wife, Brit, everyone gets you an assistant like Brit that has saved my life.

      – Amazing. Cool, and then-

      – Hard to find a really good assistant in this world, I find, anyway, that’s a whole nother story, but.

      – That is a whole another story. But Sarah of Magdalene on Instagram, Sarah with an A-H, and we’ll put links to all the things in the show notes. And thank you so much, it always, I knew it was gonna be such a juicy conversation. And of course, things started popping up in my purview a couple days before the convo, and I was like, yes, this is perfectly timed that this is when we get to connect. And then also Dana Myers, who was on the podcast like about a month ago at this point loves you so much. And she’s one of my new friends that I am loving so much here in Miami. So, I also love that we kind of have that tangential connection going too.

      – She is one of the most special women I’ve ever met in my life.

      – She really is.

      – So I’m really glad. I’m really glad you know her and the two, as soon as you got down there, I was like, you have to meet So I’m really glad it worked.

      – I love that. So, thank you for your time.

      – Yeah.

      – You’ve mentioned all this, we will see you later.

      – Yeah. Blessed day.