Are you aware of how having a primary relationship with God or the divine can nourish you?

When we talk about God, source, the divine or however you define it, we are uncovering what it means to find God within and how this can change you. 

In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Antesa Jensen, a dear friend of mine whose body of work helps to bridge the gap between the heart and the mind.

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Antesa opens up about how she’s fully come to embody challenges of being a highly sensitive person and empath. 

In this episode we speak a lot about intimacy in it’s broadest scope. Not just the sexual kind. Intimacy in all relationships – with self, with friends, coworkers, family, a partner, and the Divine. 

Listen as we talk about the nuances of relationships and the beauty that having intimacy with the Divine can bring into all of them.

Listen to episode 384 now!

In episode 384 of the Embodied Podcast we discuss:

  • [3:20] How Antesa relates to God as a source
  • [9:35] The realization that God was within and how that changed how she moves in the world
  • [16:31] Antesa’s current experience with astrology and awakening
  • [23:40] How you can’t commodify God and the commodities of our world
  • [27:40] What mutability is and how Antesa fully embodied her mutability
  • [30:42] How being an empath can be disruptive
  • [34:24] How people with different life structures can integrate these Antesa’s principles into their lives
  • [45:50] How the things you consume should be discerned with a “yes, and…” 
  • [55:25] What transformation and self-mastery requires 
  • [59:58] The point of personal development: to love yourself deeply
  • [01:05:40] How we have to learn to accept the seasons of our relationships and how they change
  • [01:08:35] The beauty of coming out of the honeymoon phase in your relationship
  • [01:11:36] What it looks like to have your primary partner be God
  • [01:14:09] How Antesa has questioned if mothering is in her path
  • [01:18:09] How you have everything you need and the nuance of accepting that

    Resources mentioned by Elizabeth in the episode “Partnering with the Divine with Antesa Jensen”:

    Quotes from this Week’s Episode of the Embodied Podcast:

    • “God is at the root of all that is.” [00:03:56] Antesa Jensen

    •  “There is so much more information in my heart than I could ever find or get from the exchange of information or the pursuit of it outside of myself.” [00:21:40] Antesa Jensen

    • “The most valuable currency is our humility.” [00:22:47] Antesa Jensen

    • “Sometimes being an empath is destructive and you have to choose compassion instead of empathy.” [30:35] Antesa Jensen

    • ”If you’re growing, You will always require new tools.” [01:00:15] Antesa Jensen

    • “There’s loss in relationship of these different periods that we might romanticize when they’re over. But then we get to these amazing different parts where we get to experience perhaps more ease, or we could just be more ourselves with people. [01:06:39] Elizabeth DiAlto

    How was this episode for you?


    Was this episode helpful for you today? I’d love to know what quote or lesson touched your soul. Let me know in the comments below OR share the episode on Instagram, tag me your stories @elizabethdialto, or send me a DM!


    About the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto


    Since 2013 I’ve been developing a body of work that helps women embody self-love, healing, and wholeness. We do this by focusing on the four levels of consciousness – physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.

    In practical terms, this looks like exploring tools and practices to help you tune into the deep wisdom of the body and the knowing of the heart, which I believe are gateways to our souls. Then we cultivate a new relationship with our minds that allows the mind to serve this wisdom and knowledge and soul connection, rather than override it, which is what many of us were taught.

    If you’ve been doing self-help or spiritual development work for a while, these are the types of foundational things that often people overlook in pursuit of fancier concepts that often aren’t practical or sustainable. Here, we will focus on building these strong foundations so you can honestly and thoroughly embody self-love. If you’re feeling it, subscribe to the show, and leave us a review wherever you listen from. You can also keep up with show updates and community discussion on Instagram here.


    Transcript for Episode 384 “Partnering with the Divine with Antesa Jensen”:

    – Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode number 384 of the “Embodied Podcast.” Today we have my friend, Antesa Jensen, with us. And she is an emotional intelligence expert. And this is a really fun convo because she specializes in empathy, vulnerability, authenticity, and the overall emotional landscape. And so we have, she lives in Denmark, and I’m here in Miami, and we primarily communicate via Voxer voice notes. And we have a really cool connection because we’re opposites. She is a Gemini Sun Virgo rising. I am a Virgo Sun Gemini rising. So we have a lot of this mercurial energy. We love nuance, analyzing things, pulling things apart, and we’re both deeply devoted to the divine. And so we have all these juicy conversations all the time, and I’m really excited to bring that to the podcast for you all to kind of eavesdrop in on, and see what might land for you. So we get into all kinds of beautiful stuff in this conversation. Share it up, listen more than once. This is probably gonna be an episode you’re gonna wanna listen to more than once. We talk about relationships, and just so many different things, and so many different nuances, again, of that emotional landscape, which is really her specialty. And, also, what it’s like when the primary relationship in your life is with God, which I know might not be the case for many of you. It is for us, but my guess is there might still be some really juicy insights and inspiration for you all even if that’s not something you desire to cultivate in your own life, so. The show notes for this episode could be found at And let’s get into the show. Antesa, you’re here.

    – I’m here.

    – Yay.

    – Long awaited.

    – Long awaited. Opening questions this year that I’m really excited about that I know you’re gonna enjoy are about how people are currently relating to God, what they call God, or anything like that, so, wherever you wanna take that as. This is our intro. This is how people are meeting you. Like there’s a little intro before the interview starts, but this is we just go right in.

    – How do I relate to God? Well, I feel like it’s apt, and this is gonna be a video as well as an audio recording. Is that right?

    – Yeah.

    – So for those of you who are watching the video, you get an extra treat, but what that says is this is I have a letter board. I’m gonna walk it through audio wise, but it says we are all a creation of the divine. And I keep that on my desk as, now I can’t put it back without making a bunch of noise. I’m just gonna put it over here. I keep that on my desk as a reminder, that God is at the root of all that is. And so to even say that God that, like, even, like, emphasize it as, like, what is my relationship to God? Like I already feel that creates this intellectual severing that’s not actually there. And so there’s this quote. I think it’s a Lao Tzu quote that says, “To deny your divinity is arrogance.” And my work and my work has been, also, to see the divinity in everyone else, and see the divinity in myself simultaneously. And so that’s, I guess, how you would call it my relationship with God. I feel like it’s like if anything, it’s more of a relationship with being elated in that way. That’s how I would answer that question, I guess.

    – And is God the word you use? Are there different names, words that you use for God?

    – When I’m with myself I call it God. I don’t personify God in the way that you would see in sort of a religious context. So I don’t think, like, I don’t think of God as he.

    – Yeah.

    – And I can appreciate that, actually, like in the sense of, like, Father Sky, Mother Earth, He, but when I’m with myself I refer to it as God. I see God as everything. God is love, God is space, God is source. And then I have a variation on that theme, depending on who I’m talking with.

    – Well, that’s the thing it’s infinite. It’s like this infinite omnipotent force.

    – Yeah.

    – This is one of the reasons I’ve been asking people that question, also, about what they call it is because I know we have a lot of people listening who are in some kind of an evolution of finding a relationship with God, or the divine, or their own spirituality, who were raised in some kind of religious context. And for some people the word God has all this connotation and charge so they don’t like to use it. And for some people they’re more neutral. They’re like, whatever, I gotta call it something. Although, I feel it much more than I wanna, like, talk about it, but it’s just interesting. I’m so curious to hear from people about how over the course of several conversations with people this year, and hearing how different people relate, and what they call it, how they address it, he, she, God, God, like whatever, how that kind of lands, or what that creates for people. I have a student who has her own name, one of my Wild Soul Movement teachers, Nicole, calls it divvy like for divine.

    – Oh, nice.

    – And I love that, just like ’cause it also doesn’t matter. It’s something in a religious context, people might call it sacrilegious to call God anything other than God. And in other contexts, people might just have absolutely no resonance whatsoever, depending on, like, some people might be really attached. Some people might be really neutral, so, I just think it’s interesting.

    – Well, and yeah, and you point to something really, really important is that, like in ancient spiritual text it’s that which cannot be named, like when you go deep enough, like in Vedic principles you get to brahmin, which is breath. Like there’s nothing, there are no words to describe it. And so the moment you give it word, the moment you give it language, you almost pull away from what it actually is. And so there’s truth to, like, the answer being silence. Like that is actually the most powerful response. And I really resonate with what you said. I’ve been baptized twice. I grew up, like, my family went to a United Church of Christ Church. That was where I was first baptized. And then my father who had addiction problems then went through recovery. And it’s very common when you go through recovery to have some version of a spiritual awakening, and then become a Christian. He became an evangelical Christian, and I got baptized again. And one of the things that, like, I found now, and this has been a reconciliation over years, is that whatever you wanna call it, whatever the physical manifestation of it has been I have always been seeking God. It took me three decades to understand that what I was seeking lived inside of me, and not out outside of me, that the universe is within, that God is within, that actually all of the knowledge, wisdom, that light it’s coming from the inside out, not from the outside in, but I was always looking for it there. I always had a curiosity. I even, like, almost converted to being Mormon. And then I got really into Judaism, and I was really into Fallot. Like I’ve always had that mindset of like, what’s out there? I wanna know, you know? I was so hungry for that. And I remember these very distinct moments, really like in linear time not all that long ago where it suddenly occurred to me that what I thought was out there is in here, and why give that language, like if you plug your ears, you can hear the universe. Like that’s what the universe sounds like. And for me that totally changed the story completely.

    – So to have that realization, how did that change how you move in the world, and what you were doing? Like when you realized, oh, it’s not out there, it’s in here. And even though it’s in here, I mean, that shifts how we relate to what’s out here. So when you had that realization, what changed for you?

    – In a way what didn’t change and in a way nothing because the one thing that I find to be incredibly profound is that, like, we already have everything that we need. And when you have this realization, one of the things that is a part of that realization is that, like, it was already always there, and there was no need to go find it somewhere. Like it was just about getting out of your own way so that you could see what already existed. And in that sense it’s kind of one of those, oh, duh, sort of moments where it’s like, wow, this is way easier than I was making it, like. My guru says if it’s, and her guru was the one who said it is like, if it’s complex or complicated it’s not spiritual. And I really love that. It’s like I was making it so complex. I was making it so complicated. And actually it’s like Occam’s razor, the simplest answer is often the correct one, like it’s really, really basic. And one of the things that, like one of the most nuanced things that had the most profound and enormous impact for me is just how effortless showing up with joy it is in my life. Like I don’t have to put effort in to maintain a sense of neutrality, and to maintain a sense of openness. I don’t have to work for that anymore. There was a necessary sort of adversarial transformation, transition that felt like more energy at first. Like when you start recognizing that what you’re doing isn’t working and you need to do some other way. Like, I think the hardest part is actually just changing the behavior, or changing the habit, or whatever it is. And then there’s a point where you reach ease again. And then the way that you know that you’ve changed is like, you kind of go through an experience and you’re like, wow. It’s not that you’re unimpacted. I think you and I were actually talking about this the other day. It’s like you’re just kind of unphased while maintaining a sort of deep engagement, and openness that feels so loving and so nurturing, and nourishing, and kind, but you’re not destabilized by it in the same way.

    – Yeah, yeah, that is such a good feeling.

    – Yeah.

    – And as you’re saying that you’re saying not to stabilize, but I’m also for whatever reason it’s coming up for me, like in this moment and I’m gonna relate it to something, which is hilarious that’s actually happening right now. And, also, we see people use this word a lot, unapologetic, but what it actually feels like to be unapologetic to me is like things are happening that in, like, a standard cultural programmed environment, or place we would automatically, like, quite instinctively be like, oh my God, I’m so sorry. Like, for example, this happens to me sometimes. I haven’t done a lot of talking today, and it’s already, it’s like a little after one my time. And so sometimes when I haven’t really been talking, like, out loud so much in a day, and the first time I really go to, like, dive in with someone I yawn a lot. So people who are watching the video, they’ve seen me yawn two or three times. And some people may be like, that’s so rude, she’s interviewing, but like it’s not. And I’m sure you don’t care ’cause I know that you know what I mean, but like, and that might seem like a simple thing, but just to be like, what? Like I’m a person I needed to yawn. Like we don’t have to pretend. We don’t have to, like, dial down expressions, normal bodily things that need to happen. Like when I think about all the things that I used to manage about just being a fuckin’ person that I just don’t anymore because I’m like, this is part of being a person.

    – It’s all spirituality.

    – Yeah.

    – Have you read “On Becoming an Alchemist?”

    – I have it, I think I’ve, it’s. Do you notice about me that I am a huge purchaser of books, not a huge finisher of books.

    – Me too.

    – I’m like open something up, be like, whoa. And then 20 pages in be like, I’m good for now.

    – Okay, but let’s get mystical about that, actually, because I am in what I consider an active practice of keeping books in my energetic field, and seeing what information I absorb from the transmission of the book. And then maybe five years later I pick up the book, and I already know everything that’s in it, but I never read a word. I actually do that a lot, but I did read that book because it was encouraged to be read to me by like, I think three or four people, because it’s about alchemy and I love alchemy. And like just the whole concept of transmutation of energy for me is just at the core of everything. And in this book she says something that I’ve always found to be so humorous is that she describes sort of the practitioner’s path. And when someone starts to become a practitioner, like, they’re sitting so erect in their meditation, and everything is so deliberate and rigid and structured, and yada, yada, yada, and then, like, you get three years in, four years in, five years in, and those people are, like, loose. I think often about like our conversations on Voxer, and it’s like sometimes we’re talking about something totally superficial. Sometimes we’re talking about something deeply profound. And in both cases it’s a spiritual conversation always because you have that capacity, and I have that capacity, and neither of us are judging one another. Like it’s just kind of like we’re humans. And I think that when you embrace your humanity, and you embrace your divinity it’s inevitable that you’re gonna be that way with everyone else, and you get to see the beauty of their process without needing to obstruct it or control it. or do anything with it at all, including with yourself. Like, I mean, that’s the core of compassion is it includes you, it’s not one-sided.

    – Yeah, or making people wrong for, like, being where they are, you know?

    – Right.

    – It’s so interesting. A friend of mine, actually, sent me this text today that was this graphic about 12 symptoms of spiritual awakening. And one of the things there’s a couple of. A loss of ability to worry. A loss of interest in conflict. A loss of interest in interpreting the actions of others. A loss of interest in judging others. A loss of interest in judging self. And I love that and I like how it’s phrased as a loss because let me tell you, I used to be abundant in all of those things. And now I’m literally, and sometimes I like to joke, and, like, blame it on having a Capricorn moon, but honestly I’m just like, it’s just a waste of time, like why would I invest my energy in that?

    – Speaking of astrology, I actually am having this experience as of the last couple months, and who’s to know what’s occurring, but even that doesn’t captivate my attention anymore.

    – No.

    – Like I used to go into astrology like, and I’m sure that everyone who’s listening to your podcast can relate to this, I guarantee it, because to a degree there are clues in astrology. There’s answers. A huge transformation is available in astrology because you have every astrological sign represented in your house somewhere. And so it’s like the opportunities for awakening abound in diving deep into astrology, but we go to astrology looking for answers, or looking for justification, also, or explanations for things. And there’s a point in a spiritual journey where you just don’t need to know why, and you don’t need to be prepared for what’s coming because you have such deep faith in your own resilience that you can just rock up, and know that it’s all gonna work out just fine because you believe in the perfection of the universe. And it’s just like, okay, I don’t actually need to spend any energy gathering up resources in the event that something is gonna go amiss.

    – I’m sure, even just early on this year in the podcast, people are probably already tired of hearing me talk about, or reference Caroline Myss, but, like, I know you have, like, a formal guru. Like, I jokingly call Caroline Myss my guru, which she would hate, but I’ve been really binging on all of her stuff on energy anatomy and mysticism since the summer. And this is like February now, which by the way, for anyone listening who likes these things, we’re recording this on this big exciting two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two date.

    – Oh, wow.

    – Yeah, so, but this is one of the things, and actually just yesterday, I was listening to one of her books on my walk, on energy anatomy and she was talking about this need to, like, know why, right? People love everything happens for a reason. And listen, I think there’s significance to everything, right? Like I used to really be on board with like, everything happens for a reason, Like the Byron Katie quote, everything is happening for you, not to you And like we could dissect, like, the semantics of all of it if we really wanted to, but, ultimately, for many years I’ve just been operating under the philosophy of if I need to know, I’ll know. If I need to know, I won’t be able to not know, like, it’ll come up, ’cause I mean I’ve just been unhooking for, like, so many years now from where do I waste my fucking time?

    – Right.

    – Where am I allowing, like, spirituality, or healing, or growth, or personal development, whatever you call it to just be an energy suck, not a value add in my life? And that was one of the things, like, dissecting the meaning, like, I’m a Virgo. I have all these planets in Gemini. Like I can dissect the shit, and analyze the shit out of everything. So I’m like, when is that useful though? And when is that a total waste of time? So this, like, kind of equanimity around needing to know things has served me so much because I’m so much less distracted by why.

    – And I actually to pull astrology back in even like you and I have our fun polarity where I’m a Gemini with a Virgo rising, and you’re a Virgo with a Gemini rising, and the Gemini journey, both of them are mercurial planets. And, of course, like, information heavy, and, like, I’m sure that just like me, you were the did you know person at every party, like, filled with a bunch of information and able to like, I’m actually, I think I’m more like that than you are.

    – You’re way more like that than me, but I love that about you ’cause you’ll take me down a rabbit hole and I’ll be like, I never would’ve done that myself.

    – I love having a buddy in my rabbit hole it’s so fun, but anyway.

    – I’m like, tell me whatever. I’m gonna retain, like, 0.3% of it, but tell me all the things.

    – But sometimes you hit a pocket and it’s so fun.

    – It’s real, it’s real.

    – But that said like that is, actually, speaking of astrology being used as a transformational evolution is like the journey of the Gemini energy is to move from duality to totality. So, like, that’s actually the pendulum that is the dance of the Gemini is to go from one extreme to the next to get to a place where they can ultimately arrive at total neutrality. And when you think about that in terms of information, which, like, ultimately, if you’re a mercurial planet, you are here to be a messenger. You host a podcast. I do transformational work where I read people. I tell them what their souls are saying, like that sort of messenger quality is really inherent in our astrology, but it’s also this very, very powerful thing to consider for the person who is so driven by the exchange of information to get to the place where the information no longer has a hook because actually one of the things that I have realized is that my wisdom is like the Antesa Google. And, like, there is so much more information in my heart than I could ever find or get from the exchange of information, or the pursuit of it outside of myself.

    – Yeah.

    – And that is, like, that’s the message I have to share with other people who maybe don’t have that same distraction as you and I have of getting caught up in information, or wanting to share is that like, ultimately, we wanna get to a place where we can be silent, and hear what we already know. And that for me, that has been so important. I have my books color-coded on my wall in my living room. And I was just saying before I got onto this call with you is like I wanna get rid of them because there’s a way in which I keep these books around as documentation of what I know. And, actually, I don’t need any of those books in order to have access to what I know anymore, but there was a point where it was a necessary part of my growth. Like it was a part of it is to like, be, like, look. Look at all these things that I’ve acquired over time.

    – Look what I got.

    – And information is so we’re so driven by it now, but I actually think that the most valuable currency is our humility, it’s our not knowing. It’s what we can’t find on Google because you can get, I mean, even Elon Musk says this, you can find everything that you need to know on the internet. And there’s a fraction of a truth in that, actually, but it’s true that at a time in the industrial revolution, when there was no internet, your knowledge was your power, it was your success, it was your wealth. And we’ve gotten to a place where all of that is free on the internet now. And you don’t have to pay to go to Harvard to learn things. You see these kids that are brilliant. They know how to play guitar. And like all sorts of really magnificent ways when they’re six years old, and they learned it all on YouTube. And now it’s like, okay, what’s the commodity? The commodity is no longer information. And you and I both know you can’t commodify God.

    – Yeah.

    – And so there’s this we could make a whole conspiracy out of this, like, keep pulling you towards the thing that you can commodify, and making it super, super important that you acquire more and more and more and more and more and more information, you can’t ever put your phone down, when actually the thing that would create satisfaction in your life is inside of your body in between your ribcage.

    – Yeah, yeah. And this is that part that Caroline Myss was talking about that I was referencing earlier was also connected to she teaches about intuition, or was many years ago. That was the main thing she was teaching about. And she was like, one of the things I realized is that when people come and they wanna learn about intuition, really why they’re coming is ’cause they wanna be in complete control of their lives. They wanna know that they’re gonna be safe. They wanna be able to intuit what’s gonna happen, and when it’s gonna happen so that they can prepare for it, and they won’t get hurt, and they won’t have to deal with all these human things that none of us are ever gonna not have to deal with, right? And there’s no one is above. This goes back to the thing you were saying earlier about practitioners. And I’ve noticed this over the years. I’m curious if you have also, ’cause I know you’ve been teaching, and you’ve been developing your body of work for a while, and you especially do a lot of work around emotional intelligence, but over the years as I have shifted from being a fitness professional, to being an embodiment specialist, from being a lot more plugged into the matrix, as people like to say, to being a mystic, and just, like, fully owning that I’m just a mystic, and that’s what I am and how I roll in the world. So my students who have evolved with me, and come with me and done many different programs, or different events, or whatever, some people have been quite disappointed at certain junctures where I just can no longer do things the way I used to do, right? The way they liked it, or the way they wanted it, or, like, there’s no longer the same access to me that there used to be, or, like, whatever, because we all grow, change, shift, evolve, and stuff like that, and, like, we can’t control any of those things.

    – Yeah. I have experienced the exact same thing, not surprisingly. I wake up, I’ve actually, maybe I’ve said this to you. We have so many beautiful conversations that I don’t always remember what I shared with you, and what I shared with someone else. I think you have the same where like I go to bed and I die.

    – Yeah.

    – I wake up in the morning and I’m born again. And one of the first questions I ask myself every day is who am I? And some days I don’t answer that question. And I just am this hollow bone all day long. And other days I tap into some aspect of my container. Like I chant mantras in the morning, or I make my breakfast, but, like, those things aren’t who I am, like, they’re actually just the container within which I can be, but my preference is to not ever answer that question. And one of the things that I find is like the second you bring an other into that relationship, there’s an explanation. There’s, like, here’s who I am today. Like there’s a bridging of who you were yesterday to who you are today, and like on the one hand, I really love my alone time, specifically, because I don’t have to give language to this space which cannot be named. For me, it’s like, it takes me out of it in a way, like it pulls me out of it to relate, and on that same level, other people are mirroring you, and showing you all of these new ways in which you can actually continue to release, and go deeper and deeper into that space, but one of the things that has been a byproduct of me, first of all, being willing to ask that question of myself, like I think that that’s a hard question to ask yourself, especially when we get so grooved into the routines of the mundane life is like, who am I? And to allow yourself to be different from one day to the next, like I fully embody my mutability to the irritation of many others, actually.

    – For anyone who doesn’t know what does mutability mean?

    – Changeable, changeable, so like if you’re a Gemini, for example, or a Virgo, you’re ruled by Mercury. Mercury is considered a mutable planet. It’s a communication planet. And it means that you’re changeable. For a really long time, I used to think it was really bad to be changeable, and to a chameleon. And we live in this society where we’re told we should be fixed.

    – Yep.

    – And I found a lot of fault with not having a fixed direction. I always had two to three different things that I was pursuing at once. And I was always told, Antesa, you need to pick one. Antesa, you need to pick one. And I never could, like, I never could do that. And when I learned to embrace that, I realized it was my gift because, actually, the more I embrace being mutable, the more I realize that I can meet people from all walks of life, all paths of life, all socioeconomic backgrounds, all races. And I meet them and have them feel seen and heard because I can match that energy. And if I was fixed, I wouldn’t be able to do that in the same way. And it’s a power, not a curse in a way.

    – Yeah.

    – But I really feel like I came into with a certain level of frustration, and challenge, but also a certain level of relief, being able to reinvent myself as often as was necessary for my transformation. And I have a particular, almost neurodivergence in my personality type. And I don’t mean that to, like, bastardize people who are on an autistic spectrum at all, but like I do think that when you get to a certain level of your spirituality, it is similar in the sense that like I am unrelenting in my pursuit of total liberation. And if anything is obstructing that I will do whatever is necessary in order to reinvent myself, debrief, also, and learn from what I needed to know, and grow in a completely different direction with zero remorse. And it’s because I feel like I don’t have a choice. Like there’s this expression you all have a choice until you don’t anymore, like, I feel like I’m in this choiceless place where the single most important thing to me is my relationship. And I’m using finger quotes for those who are listening to the audio version of this with the divine. My relationship with the divine is my biggest priority. And if I reach an impasse in my life, or in my expression, or in a relationship, or whatever it is, I’m going to dissect that and research it, and potentially change a direction. And it may be totally confusing for other people. This is we go back to being unapologetic. Unapologetic isn’t absent of compassion, but it’s not compassion if it doesn’t include yourself. And I say this for those of us who are empaths or HSPs, which I know you are, or you consider yourself to be as well, sometimes being an empath is destructive, and you have to choose compassion instead of empathy. And I think this is a really, really important thing for those of us who easily amplify other people’s experiences inside of our own bodies is to learn when it’s appropriate to have the necessary boundary to say, I know exactly how you’re feeling right now. And in order to honor myself, I’m not gonna go on your right about it. I’m gonna stay in my lane, and I’m gonna have my experience. And I’m gonna allow my frequency to be the dominant experience over here. And you can have your experience, and I’m gonna love you for that. I’m not gonna make you wrong for that, but I’m not gonna go into the hole with you because you don’t understand what’s happening for me. And that is super, super hard work. It’s like, I think the thing that makes or breaks a person’s spiritual transformation, because often you have to walk away from people who you genuinely love, but you are just not serving the thing that is the most important for you.

    – Yeah, okay, I need to break down. There were so many things you said there, but this is always really important to me, just in terms of, like, cultural competency, is that to just acknowledge here a couple of things, like you and I talk about these things, and we can really relate to each other because we are both mystics, who each of us has put our relationship to God, and like the work we’re here to do as the primary relationship in our life. And those things are not separate. We don’t have kids, we live on our own. So there are certain things that we might talk about with, like, so much ease, or it might sound like we have so much time to invest into these things, and that’s because we do. And that’s because that’s the setup of our lives, right? So anything that we’re sharing, anyone listening who might have children, or might be in a relationship, or might have other responsibilities, or work a traditional job, or maybe you don’t have as much time, space, freedom. Antesa said something about choices earlier. We all have access to different choices at different times, and different places, and different ways in our lives. And so just to be super clear, we’re not out here saying like, this is the way for everyone, or this should be accessible to everyone because we are very aware that it’s not, or that it might not be in the same way, or the same capacity for us. And so the invitation always for anyone listening is to go, cool, if that resonates for you, and it sounds exciting, or whatever, compelling, like, how is that accessible to me right now in my life? Right? Like put it in your own container and go, cool, how could I access this? How could I do that? How could I start moving in that direction? Given that, like, just like the very real factors in your life. And I’m not inviting people to let this structure setup of your life be limiting, but rather to let it be permission giving to go, yes, and. This is what I got going on. And I’m also really interested in that. How might this fit into the way my life is? So I wanna ask you on that note you work with, like you were saying earlier, you work with all different types of people. I heard you say that you’ve had people reflect, people of all different walks of life, life experiences, that they feel really seen by you. So what are some ways that you notice for people who have different life structures, or setups than you, that these things are applicable, or how do they sus through what they’ve got going on to make these things work, and integrate these principles into their lives?

    – I love that question. And you said something, also, that made me think about comparison because if you’re listening to this, and you are probably a regular follower of you, Elizabeth, which I totally understand. And if you’re meeting me for the first time and being like, why isn’t my life like that, or why can’t I have these conversations, or whatever it is, like, there’s this Joseph Campbell quote, which I really love to repeat ad nauseum is if you can see your path laid out for you step by step, it’s not your path it’s someone else’s. If you’re on your path, you’re creating it every step of the way. That’s how you know it’s yours. And that I have, like, heard that for years. And I feel like every few months or so, I get a rung deeper on that in the sense that like, we talk about this because, like, my choice to not have children, my choice to not get married, my choice to openly declare that my primary relationship is with God, like, those are big choices, which put me in a way on the fringe of society. And that was also a choice that I made, but it was also because it felt like that was my path. Like that’s my calling to do that. I don’t think that my choice to not have children should ever inform someone else to not have children. I think children are wonderful. I think that they’re absolutely wonderful. And there are many, many people who really are on a path of being a parent, being like a physical, and that is hard work. I have so much reverence for parents, it’s so hard, like I have many friends who are parents and I’m just like the right proportion of parents to children is the number of children plus one, like however many you’ve got plus two, because, like, it’s hard. You’re not sleeping. You do have to sacrifice a lot in order to parent children well. And me being observant in the ways I have, like, I used to want to be a mom. Like I used to crave that, and my mothering expresses itself in a totally different way now, which I am so much more gratified by. And I’m glad, and also blessed that I am in the circumstances where I came to this realization before I had children.

    – Yeah.

    – And I know that there are also many mothers out there who didn’t really know to think about that. And then they had the kids, and now they’re working with it, like.

    – Yeah.

    – You do the best with the circumstances, and the situation that you have available to you, and that’s that. I had the privilege to be able to make these choices at the time that I did. I work, the majority of my clients are full-time professionals, and some of them are wanting to transition out. And like, I don’t know if you know, I think you know this about me, but I had a 12-year career in international investment banking.

    – Yeah, I did know.

    – In New York and in Copenhagen. And I started going through what many will call a dark night of the soul, and looked at my computer screen one day. And, like, I was gifted at managing very large sums of cash, like these cross portfolios. And I thought, okay, this is what I’m supposed to do. And then one day I got to work and I was like, I cannot imagine doing this for the rest of my life. And I think that’s actually a really common question that people have when they’re in a professional path where like you go get an education, and then you go pick the career that’s supposed to go with your education. And then mid 30s you’re like, is this it? And for some people, it is it. And for other people, it’s not it. And I always encourage people to use the resources that they have available to get the consciousness that they want to have, and that is available everywhere. It’s available everywhere. My calling and your calling has been to be of service to a mass amount of people in a very specific way. Had I chosen to stay in banking I would’ve had that role, and I would’ve had it in a bank of 50,000 employees, but I knew at one point that my work was more global than that. I wanted to have a broader reach, and I wanted to have more space to go deeper in myself. And I was fortunate to be able to make that choice. Relationship is relationship. You want awakening. Go see how every single person in your office is a reflection of you, you know? Like you think that your company hired you. How did you hire them on a very, very deep spiritual level? What is the karmic path? Why did you choose your parents? Like, what is your child showing you about what you need to see? Being a parent and being a partner in their own right, and you and I have actually had this conversation before are huge opportunities for massive levels of transformation, and, ultimately, the opportunity for liberation. There is a point at which you can also get that from everything in your life, but if you have a family and you have kids, the opportunities are endless because everything is a mirror for you to look deeper into yourself. And so that’s what I say for the people. And not everybody’s here to be an entrepreneur. You gotta love being either if you wanna be in the spiritual realm, and you don’t wanna charge for your work, or whatever it is, like you have to love being totally surrendered to where your income is coming from. To a degree you and I both operate that way. Like we’re not interested in focusing on the finances. And as a result, we both live relatively abundant lives, I would say, but like, you have to, like, in a way, be willing to get in the driving seat in terms of taking responsibility for your life. And I can tell you that the 12 years that I worked in banking were so vital for me because I grew up in an environment with zero financial security. And it was really, really valuable for my nervous system to have a regular paycheck, and to not need to constantly prove my worth every single day, and to have insurance, and to have a pension, and to have vacation days, and to have that structure that has informed who I am today. And I have such gratitude for those skills, the life skills that I learned by being an employee. And so it all has purpose. Like, again, like, I don’t think that my path is for everyone. I think that there are many people who would hate my path. Like that’s not the point.

    – Totally. Yeah, it’s interesting, ’cause when I was doing Akashic reading often because it’s such a marketing thing, right? And, like, we all always have to just be so tuned into what is really, I always talk about this in my self-liberation framework when I talk about wild dreaming and desire, like what are the desires of my soul, and what are the desires of my ego? Because the desires of the ego are often so informed by our programming and conditioning, and you and I talk about human design a lot. We don’t need to go down that rabbit hole, but, like, that is also something that’s just like so useful to see where we have more conditioning, or where we have more openness, where we’re more susceptible to programming, and conditioning, where we might be more set in our own kind of, like, core programming, but all of that stuff is so interesting because one of the things that I think about a lot is this concept of self-responsibility. And there were some things that you just mentioned there that remind me of how do we discern what’s ours to take responsibility for, and what’s not? Like what can we even take responsibility for? ‘Cause, again, like, yes, of course, we have our own individual lives, but we’re also part of these structures, and these systems that in some cases are pretty fucked up. And one of the things I enjoy talking to you about you are from Seattle, or Washington State, specifically?

    – Seattle.

    – Seattle, and you live in Europe now, and hearing the differences between, like, how some things go in Europe, like the systems are the systems, like we all deal with patriarchy. There’s white supremacy everywhere. Like there’s colonialism everywhere, and imperialism, and all that stuff, but the way it functions, like, where you are sometimes, the way it functions where I am is quite different. And so, again, just like all these things, like you were talking earlier about like our humanity, and our divinity, and a lot of the humanity stuff, it doesn’t have to overshadow the divinity, but it has to be acknowledged if we’re even gonna let the divinity even gonna be available to the divinity.

    – As you know I’m writing a book right now, and I’m working with a ghost writer, and we actually just talked about this. The old, like, ancient, spiritual teachings, many of them kind of encourage you to sort of remove yourself from your body experience. And you as an embodiment specialist, and me as a person who’s a big fan of the body, like, and I think that this is actually something that women have to offer to spirituality is that the body needs to be involved. Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it’s like 1% of the picture, but that 1% matters. You need to be in integrity with your body. You need to be fully expressed in your body. You need to have access to your cellular transmission in your body. And then actually what that does is it gives you agency over your frequency. It gives you agency over your capacity to access the divine. So it’s an important part of the puzzle. Like it’s I would say essential. Like I don’t think that a person who’s living in a destructive environment who is eating garbage food is gonna have a lot of ease in a deeply transformational way in a spiritual transformation if their body is fighting them all the time, like if you don’t have awareness of your body, for example, there are certain things that you might not be able to acknowledge and see, and, actually, like, let go of, because it becomes an obstacle that’s a blind spot because you don’t have agency in that place. And this is why I think embodiment is so important is like, if you can’t feel yourself, receptivity is about opening to feel something without intercepting it with some weird misinterpretation. And if you have the capacity to feel the entire range of emotional expression because your body is a safe vessel for you, it’s like how much, how fast, how easily can you receive? Realization is at your doorstep at that point.

    – Yeah, it’s interesting. ‘Cause, like, even terms, I’m really not a fan of even terms like garbage food. I’ve been following this woman on Instagram for a while called the Nutrition Tea, and I really like her. She is like an anti-diet dietician, which is funny, but one of the things that she talks about is how, like, all foods can fit. And this is something I was having a chat last night with two colleagues on Instagram Live, my friend Isha and Anne, and we’ll link to it in the show notes. And one of the things that came up was around the conversation of sex these ideas how, like, energetically if you sleep with someone, their energy is in your womb for seven years, or, like, all these things. And there’s just so many ways in which I think that we’re attuning ourselves to, like, so there’s things like what you eat, or what you watch. If you’re watching TV, what you’re consuming, all these things. And to me, those things are always like a yes, and, ’cause, like, all the other ways that we’re cultivating our energy, we’re being compassionate. We’re actually practicing these spiritual principles, personally, I’ve experienced in my life really kind of trump what the fuck you ate for dinner. You know what I mean? Like, and again, this brings me, ’cause this is so important to me into, like, the societal stuff ’cause like there are some people who might be the best people you’ve ever met, who might be super open, super aware, and whatever, having these deeply spiritual practices and experiences, but, like, maybe all that they have access to is, like, air quote, garbage food, so like, and that’s just, like, one example. These are just the types of things where I’m like, even like this subtle, I’ve been noticing this. This is something I’ve been working in myself a lot lately, which is why I noticed it is like even the ways that we wanna, like, label, or, like, even subtly, like, judge, or put a value on something. And, again, it might land that way for you, which is cool, but I’m like, I just, I think anyone in any position can really have access to so much more. Essentially for me, what this comes down to is having access to so much more of their soul, and letting their soul take up so much more space in their life, regardless of the circumstances or conditions. And at the same time, like what you said, certainly there are conditions under which it will be harder.

    – Yeah, and I love that you said that, and thank you for bringing that into my awareness. And I guess my context, too, is that I grew up so sick. Like I was really, really unhealthy growing up, not because I was eating unhealthy per se, but I was kind of on the forefront of like the kids with food allergies. I had crippling asthma where, like, I was in the hospital every year. I didn’t know what it was like to breathe normally until I was in my early 20s. And so my context has been for myself, like, I’m glad you’re marking it because I think that my context has always been, I notice in me if because of my sensitivity to food, that when I eat, for example, like, soda gives me allergies. And when I can’t breathe through my nose, it actually impacts my intuition. And it’s just, like, things get foggy I don’t feel as clear. It’s again, it’s this yes, and. I totally agree with you that it doesn’t really matter, but I do think that integration relies on us making a holistic transformation, and not just these singular points. And that was really what I was trying to say. And you’re right, like, thank you for the adjustment because garbage food is really like, for me it doesn’t have a negative connotation because for me, like, if it’s processed, it kind of creates inflammation inside of my body. And then, like, I have a very palpable response to it just, like, really revealing about myself. And, yeah, like some people can only afford Cup of Noodles, and you work with whatever you can work with.

    – Yeah.

    – And, yeah, like, I think the whole point is like, can it be holistic? How do you be holistic in your transformational journey? And, like, this kind of ties to what I was saying earlier. A lot of my clients are in corporations. And one of the things I hear a lot is like, can I have the liberation without making any tangible changes in my life? Like I hear it in the sense of like, they don’t necessarily ask me that question outright, but, like, they wanna learn all the ways to get the treat without doing the work.

    – That’s like Caroline Myss talking about people who wanna be more intuitive so they could just protect the shit outta themselves, and not have to actually deal with injury, insult, tragedy, trauma.

    – Yeah, like I see this as like one of the challenges of, like, plant medicines becoming really, really wildly accessed just like people get access to God, and they don’t actually necessarily learn the inner work of accessing God inside of you because when you go through it without the supplement of, and plant medicine is beautiful, and like these really special gifts from the earth and like, and I’ve had my experiences with them, but it’s also really easy to just go a little too deeply into that. And then, like, not actually be able to receive it all because you actually have not in your normal day to day life learned how to be receptive, and so you skim the tip of the iceberg, and it doesn’t create lasting change in your life. And in order to have that open-hearted experience, you need more mushrooms, or more ayahuasca, or whatever it is. And there’s a dance, there’s a beauty to these medicines in terms of what they can show you. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, and learning how to do the work is the biggest gift that you can give yourself.

    – Yeah.

    – Because then you will always be sure, and trust and have faith in your resilience. You will always know that you’re gonna be okay. And that you cannot, you can’t replace that with something, you know, like it’s.

    – Yeah, and for me, that’s not even just resilience, that’s just like your wisdom, your connection to the divine, your connection to whatever path you’re on, and allowing things to be okay, again, without judging, well, I’ve done all this work. I shouldn’t be having this experience. Like why not, you know? Like even recently when I had an emergency surgery, I was like, oh, look at this. Like, ’cause I remember I used to be, you and I have talked about this, ’cause we both spent some time living in Southern California around types of spiritual people who could be, like, really judging and condescending about certain things. And I do remember there being, like, interesting attitudes around, like, illness, or weight gain, or, like, what that would mean about someone? Like, actually, a former partner of mine was so, I didn’t have the vocabulary for it at the time, but he was just straight up fat phobic, like, in his opinion, anyone with, like, excess weight on their body, which is most people, let’s just be honest about that, was, like, that was protection, or that was some kind of, like, incongruency with their soul. And I’m like, I don’t know, dog. That doesn’t really track for me. And you and I have had this conversation when people become attached to the peak experiences, and not cultivating the psychological infrastructure, or not integrating what they’re experiencing in the peak experience, which people don’t even need plant medicine for that. You can get that in a sound bath. You can get that at an ecstatic dance class, having sex. Like you can have that in a meditation doing breath work.

    – Saying I don’t know, creates a peak experience for people.

    – And this goes to, like, what you were saying earlier about asking that question, like, who am I? I think people attach their identity to the way they felt in the peak experience. I’ve seen people do that, right? Be like, well, I am this ’cause I had this experience, and it’s like, cool, but you also, whatever, lied to someone the other day, like even if it was a little white lie, like, cool, but we have to include, and, like, when you say holistic, like, I see all of those things too. Like we have to watch the areas and the places and spaces in our lives where we, like, wanna be manipulative, wanna control something, wanna tell a little white lie because it would be easier than having to say the thing that we just really would rather say. Like something I did recently was I decided not to go to my cousin’s wedding. I knew my whole frickin’ family was gonna be disappointed about that, but honestly I knew it was the absolute best thing for me, for my energy, for my health, and whatever. So I mean, that’s a much harder choice. That’s like in some cases doing that was, like, more transformative for me. Like the whole experience of that than, like, going having some peak experience that I don’t really integrate afterwards.

    – Well, and it’s because you chose dissonance in the interest of finding harmony.

    – Yeah.

    – Like, there’s a way in which we have these dynamics with our family where there’s this expectation that we’re supposed to match pitch with them. I don’t know if you have much of a music background, or if this is gonna make sense at all to your audience. I hope it does, but there’s this coming of age, which occurs, which requires it’s like the initiation, it’s like the going on walk about, like you’re learning to think for yourself. And you’re learning to come into your own pitch, your own frequency, which is invariably gonna be different from your family, but we are biologically wired to match pitch with our parents for the first seven years of our life because it’s physiologically necessary for our safety and wellbeing, but there’s also a necessity to eventually move away from that. And the process of doing so creates dissonance, and a family who is challenged by their children not always matching pitch, and choosing what is first perceived as dissonance, or conflict, and on both sides it can be experienced that way, but, again, like, all transformation requires adversity. All transformation requires dissonance. Self-mastery requires you to be able to sit with a sensation of dissonance in your body without needing to do anything about it. And that is like, that says so much about who you are as a person that you can be in that and not need to change it, and not need to make it any other way, and still be totally right with your choice. Like the byproduct of that is that you, hopefully, get to a place with your family where you can create harmony, although, you’re not matching pitch with them. And that makes the relationship significantly richer. You and I talked about this offline is like, you’re not gonna disappear from your family. Your family doesn’t work like that. You guys have a really cohesive structure that’s broad and deep. And when your family sees that you can stay connected without being in unison with them, when you can stay connected creating harmony, and the richness and depth that that’s gonna bring to your family dynamic, they’re gonna trust it. And this, actually, I feel happens with every family who has a child or an adult child who decides to go away from the way that the family normally behaves or chooses, like it could be anything as simple as like you have a family of entrepreneurs. Dad wants you to be in your family business. You decide to go be an employee somewhere. That’s gonna create conflict, or disharmony. You almost have to live that experience in order to trust that it’s actually gonna bring more wealth, and actually security into the family constellation, but if you have many generations where that wasn’t occurring, of course, the person who’s never experienced it before is gonna be skeptical. And in some cases do the manipulative thing of doing whatever they can in order to get you back into unison with them because that is the security of the family. And from as far as what you know, like, you can’t blame someone for their ignorance, actually, like, that’s the scope that they’re working with, okay. The only thing that you can do is show up and say, hey, I’m committed to this relationship, and I’m also committed to myself.

    – Yep.

    – And that’s what I see you doing. And I think it’s so huge and it is so brave and courageous to be able to do that. And it’s conforming with the family dynamic, isn’t always healthy, and it doesn’t necessarily mean you need to throw them out.

    – Totally.

    – But there may be a necessary separation so that you can merge with yourself, and then have discernment about what aspects of your family dynamic you wanna engage with and not, like, that’s where the discernment actually comes from is that first step into the abyss, and just having faith that your hearts will lead you home again.

    – Yeah, I love, especially, you said so many great things, but this point about the dissonance in the service of harmony of getting to harmony, right? And I have so many different types of healing conversations with people, and so often people, let me put it in my own context just for the sake of simplicity. There have been years since I’ve been on this, like, healing and growth soul path of just kind of being in a really good place with my family. And then it’s almost like every couple years, some crunchy thing happens and I’m like, damn it, I’m gonna have to blow this shit up again, fuck, like, I thought we were in a good place.

    – My favorite disruptor.

    – Oh my God, and then though, but it’s like, but it’s not this isn’t bad. And I notice people judging themselves. I don’t judge myself for this anymore. I’m like, oh, here’s just another one of these, right? But it’s like you said, I’m like, oh cool, we’re in another one of these, like, gotta have the dissonance, gotta have the conflicts to get to whatever is the next phase of experiencing harmony together. Something needs to get shaken up. Something that’s been working is no longer working. And so this thing, again, and not everyone has to have as dramatic as an experience of whoa, I gotta blow this motherfucker up. Sometimes it’s just like, ooh, I gotta set this boundary, or, ooh, I realize I need something that I’m not gonna get here. I need to get it somewhere else, or whatever, so, but it’s not a backslide. Like I hear people say, oh, I backslid. I’m like, it’s never a backslide. It’s always, like, we’re always moving forward in some way, shape, or form.

    – You just said something, first of all, thank you. Can we just let go of the self-flagellation personal development story? Can we just let it go?

    – I don’t abide by it ever.

    – I know you don’t.

    – It’s hard, it’s hard to let that go.

    – But like, we don’t have to punish ourselves, like the point of personal development is to not, like, beat yourself into submission. Like that’s not why we’re here. It’s to love, it’s to love yourself really deeply.

    – Yeah.

    – But you said something that made me think of something really, really important. If you’re growing, you will always require new tools.

    – Yep.

    – You can’t, like, you may get into a relationship, and have all the tools to make it through the first year, and then guess what? You’re gonna get into your two, and your three, and your five, and your 10, and you’re gonna need new tools.

    – Yeah.

    – And if you try to apply the tools that made it through your first year to the seventh year, you’re most likely not gonna be successful. I guess it kind of depends on the tool. Like if the tool is show up with curiosity and humility, like, sure, that one’s gonna get you really far for a really, really long time, but it’s not like you can honeymoon, and compromise your way through a long-term relationship, or through parenting a child through one to 18 years old. Like I think any parent who’s had a child from zero to nine months understands how quickly things can change. And, actually, although it’s not so apparent in adults, we change like children and infants do. And what that requires is a new mindset every single day. Like to fool yourself into thinking that the thing that worked for you last week is gonna work for you today, it can sometimes be a fruitless pursuit. Sometimes that works, but sometimes it doesn’t. And I love what you say, like, with your family. Like there are things that you’ve, like, for example, like there was a time where you were more inclined to stir the pot and your growth wasn’t stirring the pot. And sometimes it still is your growth is to like, say the thing and just name it. There may come another time where the growth is to say nothing.

    – Mm-hmm.

    – You know, like there may become a time where the growth is to learn how to like, offer a compassionate reflection. Like there’s never this, like, I find at least the response is never the same multiple times in a row. And, like, the overarching tools are like the Care Bear Stare, which I know you’re a huge fan of. Like, you call it the Care Bear Stare. Like, I call it just, like, active love. Transmission is like, can you love someone exactly where they are? And, like, it really does feel like the Care Bear Stare. So, like, I’m totally with you on that. It’s like the heart energy coming out of your chest, and watching it enter into someone else’s chest, regardless of how they’re showing up, that is a tool that will last you until the end of eternity, but you’re gonna need to communicate in different ways, depending on the context, you’re gonna need to share or not share different things. Sometimes it’s like, I think you at one point shared about the routes of safety, did you?

    – Uh-uh.

    – Maybe I heard about it through you. Okay, well, there’s these routes of safety. I talk about them quite a lot because needs are, like, my jam, and routes of safety basically have, like, these eight different areas of ways in which you will create a sense of security within yourself that can function like values, or at least current parking spots for what you need to have focus on in your relationship in order to heal. And sometimes the route of safety is advocating for yourself. Sometimes the route of safety is sitting under a weighted blanket. Sometimes the route of safety is being active in your life, and following through with all of your commitments. Sometimes the route of safety is having relationships with people who are open and available for reparation after conflict. Like, it changes constantly, needs are a living organism. And we are all growing as fast as infants are growing. It’s just that infants are growing in a linear way that’s really measurable. And so we think, oh, we’ve stopped growing now that we’ve reached adulthood because we’re now in our full adult expression, but we see now, like, now that women are not getting so erased when they get into their wise crone age, like, there is a whole era post-menopause.

    – Woo.

    – That we’re now seeing on social media in ways that no one, like you used to get deleted when you got old as a woman, you know, like, it’s a completely different world now, but there’s a real, like, that doesn’t stop. Like, I could just go on about that forever, but thank you, like that just.

    – Yeah. Something in that was reminding me of, I forget whose post it was. It was about, like, the nature of relationships, and how the honeymooning phase, like, that super in love, like, when you’re being so sweet with each other, and writing poetry, or, like, whatever is anyone’s expression of that, that shit does not last. And a woman left a comment on this post about how she’s been in a relationship for 11 years, and the love just looks different. And, like, almost being braced during that honeymoon phase, knowing that it would someday end, and rather than making things, again, this kind of goes to what you were saying, can we stop the self-flagellation? Can we also stop beating up our partners, or the people in our lives as relationships become more seasoned, and just the way we connect and relate is different. Like even in boundary journeys, even with my family, sometimes I joke how boundaries sometimes have to be so delicate in the beginning. There’s all this communication, sometimes over-communication, or sometimes people are, like, pushing, but then you get to the point where it’s like, okay, we got the boundary. So for example, with my mom, she’s just one of these people who gives extraneous, in my experience, detail on things. My brother and I joke about it all the time. And so years ago, like I had to, like, gently find ways to be like, okay, this is too much information for me. Like get to the point, but now we’re at a place where I can literally be like, all right, like, I can literally go like this, I could be like, all right, fast forward me to the end, what happens? And we laugh and she goes, okay, okay, okay. Are you at your limit? And I’m like, yes. And then she just tells me the end of the fuckin’ story. And so, but to get to that, like, in the beginning she was offended, it was whatever, it was all those things, but now we’re at the place where I could be like, all right, fast forward me, what’s the outcome? Like I’m maxing out, give me like, let me know what happens, you know? And, like, that’s an amazing thing. So it’s interesting all these, like, there’s loss in relationship of these different periods that we might romanticize when they’re over, but then we get to these amazing different parts where we get to experience perhaps more ease, or we could just be more ourselves with people, or not so in our heads and analytical about how’s this gonna go, but it’s also beautiful too. It’s just different.

    – Yes. Amen. You’re talking about intimacy.

    – It’s fucking intimacy, yeah.

    – It’s intimacy, and most people.

    – You’re like, there’s a word for that.

    – Yeah, exactly. Most people think of intimacy as, like, sexual intimacy, and the hot flames of early relationship. I just don’t buy it. And I’ve been through the whole conscious sexuality thing. I’ve been I’ve had open relationships. I’ve had monogamous relationships. I’ve had short relationships. I’ve had long relationships. And here’s, like, a really hard to digest fact is that, like, that in love feeling it’s chemicals, it’s often a light or heavy version of trauma bonding. Like we think that the thing that we’re totally attracted to is the thing that we can see in love, but actually the thing that we’re totally attracted to is the thing that we have total disdain for in that other person because we haven’t accepted it in ourselves. And then we play that out sexually. And in a healthy relationship it looks totally different. And one of the things that I think is really beautiful is that people graduate out of that honeymoon phase, where the hooks are completely governing the way that you show up in the relationship. You start to actually get real with one another. And if you don’t blame your partner for the fact that you’re not still trauma bonding in that first year of the relationship, you actually have the potential of creating something really, really healthy and really beautiful, but a healthy relationship is not rooted in sexual intimacy. It’s rooted in emotional intimacy. It’s rooted in spiritual intimacy. Sexual intimacy is a byproduct of having intellectual, other kinds of non-sexual physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, and spiritual intimacy, some level of it. Like you need to know that you share the same values with your partner. You need to know that it’s okay for you to feel all of your feelings with your partner, and create some kind of psychological safety with them. You need to a certain degree at least have the same goals and intentions.

    – Yeah.

    – And you need to feel safe being in the physical presence of an another person without objectifying yourself, and thinking that every single moment that you kiss each other has to turn into sex, like.

    – Yeah, and you’re saying a lot of things about, like, romantic partnership here, but if we take what it’s also really reminding me is so, because the word intimacy is so connected to sex, we don’t even consider all the types of intimacy that are available to us in nonsexual relationships.

    – 100%.

    – My God, a friend of mine sent me this podcast episode the other week, which I don’t even remember. I can find it in the text message. We’ll link it up in the show notes, but one of the things that came up was just like the array of intimate, oh, ah, this was the term, relational multiplicity, and it was like, oh my God, because, like, at this point, and one of the things I love about my community in Miami is, actually, most of my friends here are in their mid to late 40s, if not in their 50s, single and child-free. Somehow I’ve landed in a community of people who are, like, really are my people, you know? And, like, one of our friends just went all out for our other friend’s 50th birthday. And I just loved it so much. She was like, well, of course, like, she’s not married. We don’t have husbands, like, this is what we need. We’re all heterosexual. This is what we do this for each other. And I’m like, that is so beautiful. That is so, like, that expectation. I mean, listen, we can have a whole nother podcast conversation about what the expectations would fall onto a partner, or, like, the primary person.

    – Totally.

    – If you’re in, like, whatever, and, again, that’s also just a very dominant, the model of monogamy, which this podcast episode that my friend sent me was about, like, openness and not just, like, polyamory, and intimate relationships, but, like, everyone is my lover, like, finding kin because it was from an Indigenous woman, like animals are my kin, people, nature. Like I have these intimate relationships with all kinds of things. And I was like, that is what I’m talking about. This is why as a person who’s not partnered, I actually hate the term single ’cause there’s nothing single about my fucking life. Like I am surrounded, like I am in communion with so much all the time, every day.

    – Elizabeth, you are defining what it means to have God as your primary partner.

    – Right.

    – That is what, literally, if you were to take the sound clip from the last minute and you wanted to define what does it mean to have a primary relationship with God? That’s what it is. When you realize the spiritual intimacy that goes to prioritizing that relationship in a devotional way above all else, what that does is it creates a level of intimacy that’s available everywhere, and it’s a limitless and infinite experience. And one of the things I see that creates a lot of suffering in the world is this idea, a mindset that you can only have intimacy with one person, and it’s not available anywhere else. And that’s not true, it’s simply not true. I don’t care what walk of life you are from. You can have intimacy with your boss. You can have intimacy with a cat. You can have intimacy with somebody. I’ve created intimacy with the hippopotamuses at the Fredericksburg zoo because I think that they’re absolutely adorable, like, I follow the Instagram zookeeper post all the time. It’s, like, a problem.

    – Or not.

    – Yeah, like, but, like, this is the thing, is, like, the word intimacy carries so much sexual charge, and it’s actually not sexual. It’s not sexual. Sexual has to do with your genitals and so much more, I mean, like so much more, but intimacy is a value neutral term. And when you choose to relate in this way that you’re describing, and that I’m describing, it is a recognition that you can be nourished by everything.

    – Yes, fuck, yes, which is it’s, like, so revolutionary because when you look at some people who are plagued by the things they think they lack, and this relates. I know we’re kind of coming up on time here. You know this around November when I just, like, any desire I had for dating, or a partner, just, like, drained right out of me because I’m now in an environment and in a community where I’m full, I have a lot of intimacy here. Like I have a lot of connection and communion here. These things I was thinking I would get, like, I got to see my own conditioning in that. These things I was hoping to get from a partner I’m like, oh, well, I have them now. So I don’t even need to, like, put my energy towards requiring this thing that I’m not even sure I wanna integrate into my life.

    – And by the way, this is actually one of the questions that I had for myself around mothering at one point, like, I have a friend who’s writing a book about people who have opted to not be parents. And I used to really wanna be a parent. And then there was a point in my life where I was grabbing for it in such a way that, like, I was looking for the father of my future children, like, as a date, like, I was in many ways a big red flag in that sense. Like, I just feel like I see it now so clearly. Ah, but I had to sit back one day because when I saw that a lot of my pull to be a parent was to rectify my own childhood. And then I distilled, first of all, dissected, and then distilled the attributes of mothering that I felt very called to because I have very mama energy. Like, really, I’m a very nurturing person. I’m a fiercely loving person. And the same thing that we were just talking about with a partner, like, I had to dissect that in terms of children, and think that the only way that I could express this mother energy, and the intimacy of gestating, of birthing, of cultivating, of growing, of fostering, I do that every single day with the people who are in my community, with the men and women that I am supporting. And I realized in the same way that you’ve said this, like I already am a mother.

    – Yep.

    – And I think that there are many childless women who are mothering the planet, and the people in the planet, and the adults who didn’t have the parenting that they needed.

    – Yes.

    – In such superb and exquisite ways. I know that you feel the same way.

    – Yeah.

    – And it’s that same thing. Like, I was torturing myself thinking that the only way that I could express this part of myself was to give birth to a physical child, in the same way that I could only express my intimacy by having a partner, like it’s bullshit, it’s not real. And it’s not to say that you shouldn’t want a partner, and you shouldn’t want kids. It’s just to understand that you don’t need to torture yourself thinking that’s the only outlet for that particular expression.

    – Totally, and I also just, whenever this kind of comes up, whenever the conversation of childless, or child-free comes up, I just always wanna send Care Bear Stares, and acknowledge the people here who perhaps really did want kids. And that just did not happen for them for whatever array of reasons, which in some cases might be very painful, and still might be very sensitive. So we’re also not out here thinking that everyone who doesn’t have kids doesn’t want them. We are well aware that some people really did, and that is not how it worked out, so. We’re sending you big hugs for that if that is something that is present for you, or something that you’re navigating, or have navigated, or is a sensitivity for you. Okay, there’s one thing I wanna come back to. Do you have time, are we okay?

    – Yeah, go for it.

    – I was like, oh, we won’t use the full 90 minutes. And then, of course, we are, because this is how we are.

    – We’re approaching my bedtime, but, like, in half an half, 45 minutes.

    – Okay, great.

    – So we’ll have to talk fast.

    – We’ll make sure, people. This piece about everything you need is inside of you because one of my taglines for many years was everything you’ve ever needed has always been inside of you. And this is actually something that gets pulled out, and demonized as, like, a spiritual platitude. And I’m like, oh, but context is everything, right? So, again, when we’re saying everything you’ve ever needed has always been inside of you, which is my way of saying it, or, like, I forget how you said it. You said, oh, you said you have everything you need. That specific phrasing is where people are, like, some people are starving. Like, they don’t have what they need, like, whatever. How do you bridge for people this concept of like, what’s, like, the context and the nuance around accepting, like, I do have everything I need, like, on what level, in what way are you talking about that when you talk about that?

    – This one is a deeply personal in a way prompt, and I’m really glad you’re asking it. I’m just gonna answer it with full transparency, like just, and also disclosing that it’s, my access point to my ability to say that with the energy that I do comes from having done some really, really deep work in my own life, because I really find that you can’t really grok that until you have had direct experience with God.

    – Yeah, yes, yes.

    – If you are trying to intellectualize it, it won’t land.

    – Nope.

    – And the way that I had that experience was attempting to do step work. And for anybody who doesn’t know anything about step work, but, like, fourth step is taking inventory of your resentments, and ultimately taking responsibility for it. And I happen to have been raised, having been sexually abused, and neglected by, like, direct family members, and I have had childhood experiences, which are totally unjust and make no sense. And when I was facing those things as a part of my inner work, and learning how to rid myself of the inflammatory responsive resentment, and start with a clear slate, I had to look at those experiences, and own my part as it were. And how do you own your part when you are truly a vulnerable child victim of a circumstance that in a way you had nothing to do with.

    – Yeah.

    – The only place you can go is God in those cases. It’s the only place you can go. I had to get to a place where I said to myself, and I still stand by this because in many ways I had horrifying experiences that cannot be explained, and cannot be forgiven in a way, like, why would you want to? They’re disgusting, they’re awful. And on a deeply spiritual karmic level, I know that I hired my parents. I know that I chose them. That’s the only place I could go that I needed to learn something. And I needed it acutely in order to get somewhere in this life in order to serve in a very, very specific way. And my parents did unforgivable things, both of them did. They didn’t know any better. They were informed by what they were informed by, but I didn’t believe that. There was a time where I was really spiteful, and I thought that they were wrong, and I held them to a standard that they were never, ever gonna reach.

    – Yeah.

    – And the only explanation I could ever get to is that there must be some reason why I hired these people to be my teachers in this lifetime. And I may not know why until I’m 90 years old, and I gotta be right with that.

    – Or you may not know why, like, you may not, like you may not get to know.

    – You may not, and one of the things that during that process as I was going through it, I had effectively sponsors, and many, many people who were supporting me through this process because I really was, like, letting go of a whole identity of me being abused, mistreated, tossed aside, and living in spite of that, but I wasn’t thriving, I was surviving, and I was controlling, and I was manipulating, and I wasn’t happy. I had to sit with it and be, like, we have an eternity. I don’t have to know right now, but I have to have faith. I can evoke faith in myself that there must be rightness in this. If it’s to learn compassion for my parents for their ignorance, that was a huge teaching for me because I am a recovering know-it-all, and I really held people up to the flame if they messed up, or they didn’t see a thing that I saw. I’d totally be superior about that. It was a whole identity. Like I just thought people were completely worthless, and incapable, including my parents. I was like, I could do a better job of parenting. And that was actually part of the reason why I wanted to be a parent myself for so long is so I could prove my parents wrong. I wanted to prove them wrong. I wanted to show them what it was like to raise healthy children. And when I got that, when I saw that, I was like, I don’t know if I want children anymore, actually, because now I see that my reason for wanting children was a spiteful resentment drive. And thank God I saw that before I had the kids, because that would’ve been a lot of karmic pressure to put on a child, but all of that to say is that like, I have a lot of compassion for not having had a direct enough experience of that faith at work to see how easy it is to weaponize those words.

    – Yeah.

    – For me, they’re not words. I couldn’t have known what that meant until I went to faith first.

    – Yeah.

    – I had to embrace mortality, and I had to accept that God saw more than I did. That’s the leg I stand on now.

    – Yeah, and for anyone listening, you might not be in a place right now of accepting that. It might be a curious, it might feel like a stretch. It might feel like relief. Like you even might have an experience listening to this, and being like, oh, I didn’t even realize that was an option. And it could just by some literal grace click in for you. And you are also welcome to totally reject it and be like, nope, fuck that, and that’s fine too, but I’m with you on that. I’m with you on that, I love that. I appreciate the way you explained it, sharing your personal experiences, thank you very much. And what a beautiful place to end the conversation on. So thank you.

    – Yeah, thank you.

    – We’re gonna put links in the show notes to website, all your things, social media and everything like that, but is there anything specific that you wanna send people to?

    – No, I don’t think it’s necessary. I think that I have resources on my website. If you’re curious about who I am I would say follow me on social media. I’m not the type, you and I have talked about this a lot. Like, I don’t have, like, a weird rule about how I connect with people. I am an old school relationship building type of person. I love to know how people are impacted by me. I love that feedback also. And so I’m always, like, send me a message, say hi. I love to know who hears, you know, like for me.

    – And our people are great at that. They’re so good at sending messages.

    – I’ve noticed that about you, like, you have lots of people who write you. I think that that’s so incredible. I do as well, typically. And I just really invite it, like, this is a thing that I personally have also experienced with you is like, when I used to listen to your podcast before we knew each other, I felt like I was sitting on the couch talking to you. And like, there was a level of intimacy that you build with your audience that I really admire. And I do the same thing. And I think that’s the way it’s supposed to be, you know?

    – Uh, maybe.

    – And so like, I don’t know, I don’t feel a need to promote anything. I just feel a need to acknowledge the gratitude that I have to be here with you, and have this beautifully deep conversation, and great love for you.

    – Well, great, and I had nothing planned, but the God question, so, loved it.

    – I love it.

    – Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for listening, share it up. Sometimes there are episodes where I’m like, this one is gonna be a great conversation piece episode, like sit down with someone that you wanna build more intimacy with and be like, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? Be like, I don’t agree with that part. Like this is a great one to, like, make it a book club, or something, like, have a round table discussion about it ’cause we got into a lot of deep stuff anyway.

    – True.

    – All right, friends, I will see you later. Thank you so much.

    – Bye.

    – Bye.