Are you open to imperfect, spontaneous healing while finding the divine?

As we connect more deeply with our pain and inner wounds, we start to recognize all the small, easy-to-miss opportunities to connect with the divine in our everyday lives. But if you aren’t open to these moments, you’ll miss them–and the lessons they bear–entirely.

In today’s episode, Po-Hong Yu, a mystic and medicine woman, shares about the divine, embracing our imperfections, and accepting spontaneous healing as it comes.

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In her work, Po guides people to heal their Pain Bodies, the deepest parts of where trauma lives. And in doing so, she helps people create a foundation for accepting the spontaneous healing that is possible every day.

While we might have grand ideas about how our healing journeys should play out, life doesn’t always happen that way. Real life is messy and imperfect, and this means we can all remake ourselves in small ways every day. 

Join me in today’s episode as I chat with Po about her journey to embracing spontaneity and flow, both in her personal healing journey and in her relationship with the divine. She’s sharing what being a mystic means to her, and she’s also shedding some light on the difference between love and codependency.

Listen to episode 385 now!

In episode 385 of the Embodied Podcast we discuss:

  • [3:30] Po’s “polyamorous” relationship with God and how she finds the divine in the mundane
  • [8:37] Embracing spontaneity in your connection to the Universe
  • [10:16] Finding community throughout your life and maintaining friendships as you grow
  • [17:15] Love vs. codependency and how the two feel different
  • [19:33] How to set boundaries in your business and minimize codependency with clients
  • [23:10] Po’s work as a Mystic and Medicine Woman and what that means to her
  • [27:17] Embracing imperfection in your life and business
  • [32:29] Free resources for you on your spiritual journey
  • [34:17] Becoming and re-becoming throughout your life and as a leader in the spiritual community
  • [37:52] Being a Medicine Woman and what that means to Po
  • [44:59] Understanding the Pain Body and doing the work to heal it
  • [50:58] How our inner work work opens us up to deeper understanding and spontaneous healing
  • [56:01] Po’s new podcast, The Tao of Po

Resources mentioned by Elizabeth in the episode “Partnering with the Divine with Antesa Jensen”:

Quotes from this Week’s Episode of the Embodied Podcast:

  • “I’m polyamorous when it comes to God –  I’ll say God, I’ll say universe, I’ll say Source. It really depends on what I feel like saying at that moment.” [00:03:50] Po-Hong Yu
  • “I’ve always had community, but I didn’t always receive the love that was around me. I wasn’t capable of letting it in because I was so protected.” [00:12:25] Po-Hong Yu
  • “I trust that people can take care of themselves. I don’t need to be responsible for other people’s processes, and I don’t want to be.” [00:18:47] Po-Hong Yu
  • “Any time trauma or pain happens it lives in the body. And that’s why we call it the pain body.” [00:45:52] Po-Hong Yu

How was this episode for you?


Was this episode helpful for you today? I’d love to know what quote or lesson touched your soul. Let me know in the comments below OR share the episode on Instagram, tag me your stories @elizabethdialto, or send me a DM!


About the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto


Since 2013 I’ve been developing a body of work that helps women embody self-love, healing, and wholeness. We do this by focusing on the four levels of consciousness – physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.

In practical terms, this looks like exploring tools and practices to help you tune into the deep wisdom of the body and the knowing of the heart, which I believe are gateways to our souls. Then we cultivate a new relationship with our minds that allows the mind to serve this wisdom and knowledge and soul connection, rather than override it, which is what many of us were taught.

If you’ve been doing self-help or spiritual development work for a while, these are the types of foundational things that often people overlook in pursuit of fancier concepts that often aren’t practical or sustainable. Here, we will focus on building these strong foundations so you can honestly and thoroughly embody self-love. If you’re feeling it, subscribe to the show, and leave us a review wherever you listen from. You can also keep up with show updates and community discussion on Instagram here.


Transcript for Episode 385 “Finding the Divine In the Mundane with Po-Hong Yu:

– So right before I hit this record button, me and Po were cracking up because we both wore leopards to the interview today.

– Twinzies.

– We’re very different people, but we’re alike in so many ways that are hilarious. Not to mention, I’m sure at some point in this interview, you’ll get to hear us laugh together. Po’s one of those people where if we are out to eat, which we do pretty regularly.

– Yep.

– And we start laughing at something it’s like restaurant halting.

– And everybody’s head is turning, getting whiplash. Like, “Who are those bitches?”

– What are these crazy bitches laughing about? Yeah, it’s been like that, like that since the first time we met. So Po, welcome. Welcome to the show.

– Thank you. I’m excited to be here.

– So we’re opening up this season, it’s like a triple opening question. So tackle it in whatever order you want. I like asking people, what do you call God? What is your current relationship to that? And how do you like to commune with it?

– So I’m like polyamorous, I guess, when it comes to God, because I’ll say, God, I’ll say universe, I’ll say source. So it really depends on what I feel like saying in that moment. So I don’t have one particular word, but it’s usually one of those three. But I do feel like love is God. So sometimes I might use that too. It just depends on how I’m feeling. And I love using God actually a lot too, because I think there’s like this stigma. And I love that you ask this question in this way, because there’s such a stigma around that word. And like it’s connected to religion and for me, it’s absolutely not. And so that’s just my side point on that. And I like to use it as a way to actually like show that it’s bigger than an institution, right. And my relationship, is that the second part?

– Yeah. How are you relating to it right now? Like, what’s your relationship to God, the divine, right now?

– So I guess it’s connected to how I commune with God in that, for me, it’s very much, well, I guess it’s multifold, but one part is around nature. Like nature for me is everything. And if I feel disconnected from spirit at some point, see, I use spirit right now. So if I feel disconnected at any point, I know that I can always tap into nature and feel immediately realigned and reconnected. So I always have that available, that resource available to me. And it doesn’t have to be that too. So I commune with God, you know, in the mundane, you know, these like nuanced little simple, everyday moments. And I think that’s so important because I think a lot of times, you know, connect with God at church on Sunday or whatever, you know, I’m not a church person, I’ve never been. I don’t have a lot of friends that go to church. I used to go to like a spiritual center. So it was kind of like church. So it’s not to minimize those experiences, but all that to say that it’s not like this one day a week event, right? It’s like when I’m washing dishes or when I’m taking a shower or I’m, you know, just looking out into the sky, you know, these simple, basic quote unquote moments where I feel God the most actually.

– I am with you on that. And this is why I’m loving opening these podcasts this year with this question. Because one of my big goals in the school of sacred embodiment is helping people have their own relationship to the divine, even if they’re religious, right. ‘Cause I always say, I’m not anti-religion, I’ve had a lot of beef with religion for a lot of its oppressive aspects, but, and the lies and the violence, but you know, not everyone enforces, prescribes to and adheres to those things. The other day– So, you know, at the time of recording this, it’ll come out a couple weeks later, but I just released the new website on Monday. And I don’t remember if this was Monday. I think it actually was. I still had some other work and things to do. But I took a break. I had to go to Whole Foods down the street. And when I went in, it was like very, very little light rain. When I came out, it was pouring and all these people were like standing under the covered part, like kind of waiting for it to die down. And I was so excited because I spent an exorbitant amount of time in the week leading up to that in my apartment. ‘Cause I was just getting things done. And I was like, yes, like gimme this cleanse, you know? So I just like walked out and I walked to my car even more slowly than I would’ve walked in my car if it wasn’t raining. And I just have– I was thinking I’m like, this is probably polluted, but I don’t care, cleanse.

– Pollute me, baby.

– Pollute me, baby. Pollute me with your divine raindrops from the heavens. And it was just so– At this moment of being like– ‘Cause like I do associate the elements with like, like water and earth, I do associate like with the feminine and like fire and air, I do associate with the masculine and like I don’t think anyone else needs to make those associations. I do. And so I was like, yes, mama. And it just felt like, you know, the mother literally just like raining down on me, like just little kisses with every drop. And I was like, I really needed that today.

– I love that so much because it reminds me of like something that I’ve been meditating on for the last month or two around spontaneous, like spontaneity. These moments like that just happen and you feel the divine. It’s like there’s this availability in us to feel the divine ’cause that’s so important. Obviously God is around all the time, you know, this energy is always available, but are we willing and available and open enough to feel those moments, you know? And so like you feel that rain, you’re like, “Ah, yes.” It’s just organic. It’s not always like, I’m like, “Oh I’m gonna like connect with the divine right now.” It’s not always like that, right? It’s not always planned. And so those are the best moments to me that are just spontaneous.

– Well, and sometimes too, you can sit down and not connect.

– Yep.

– We’re not entitled to a connection just ’cause we really want it. Towards the end of my time living in Oakland, I was having trouble connecting. ‘Cause I was just– There was just so much other stuff in my field and I was so over it.

– Yes.

– And I just wanted to get my ass to Miami.

– And you got here. I’m like, it’s so crazy. I was thinking about this because I’m like, we have not known each other very long. And I feel like, and we were just text texting about this yesterday, but like you just got here, I just got here. You know, maybe like a year before you. And it like I’ve known this group of women so much longer than I have. And just like this drop in. I’m so glad that you came here. Oh my God. It was meant to be.

– We love to talk about synchrony. So I’ll tell people listening. The way I met Po is two separate people from my life I don’t don’t even know either of these people. That’s not true, I know them well now. But at the time actually, when they introduced us, I didn’t know them as well.

– Really?

– We’re both like, “Hey, I don’t really know–” And you don’t know, I know them better than you do, but they were like, “There’s this woman Po, “I don’t know her that well, “but she all also just moved to Miami.” “And I just have such a feeling “that you two would really hit it off.” So like two different people set us up.

– Yes.

– And it was just, they nailed it.

– They nailed it. They nailed it. And then like that first day we went to dinner and we were cackling. It was like, I love her.

– Yeah. So funny. So I’m glad you brought that up. ‘Cause I had made just a couple little notes of things I wanted to make sure I talked to you about. And I think this is really important. Having community as you get into like your 30s, 40s and 50s, as you’re a person who’s like growth oriented, ’cause you’re a person who’s gone through many different phases and seasons of life, different career paths, like similar to me and for a lot of people, those are the areas and places, depending on where you live, depending on what you do, that kind of shapes a lot of people’s relationships. And I certainly have found this. Each time I’ve moved, people I thought I would be friends with for the rest of my life, some of them kind of just fall off and you’re like, wow, like proximity was really keeping that relationship together. And so I’m curious for you as you’ve evolved in your own life and different career paths and things like this. Maintaining friendships or making new friendships or finding community, what does that look like for you? What have you learned? Like what have been some of the, like, I don’t know, patterns or nuances to the evolution of your relationships?

– First thing that comes up is like, it first comes from my own of availability, you know. I was just talking about availability to like, God, it’s the same thing. Like I’ve always had community, but I didn’t always receive the love that was around me, you know. ‘Cause I wasn’t capable of letting it in because I was so protected. And so even though I did– It’s not like I didn’t feel the love, but I didn’t feel the totality of it or the support, you know, my belief systems would pop in and I would feel like nobody loves me. Like I’d have this story that nobody loves me. So first thing is like, you know, doing the work of like really loving on myself and shedding those stories so that I could actually take it in. And so that’s major. That’s fucking major because it’s all reflected. I mean, the reason why I believe that my community now in Miami’s so amazing and it’s not that it’s more amazing than Miami, but I’m more accessible, you know. I’m ready to have this kind of community that I’ve been asking for for years. And like I have a beautiful community in New York. It’s just that we talked about this yesterday. The energy of New York is just not the type of place that makes it easy to connect with people. People really prioritize, you know, work and not as much space, you know? And so that was a big one for me, you know. I think I just didn’t have the capacity to really take in all the goodness.

– I wanna pause here for a second, ’cause this is so huge. And sometimes I could feel, I know my audience, they’ve been around for such a long time and even people who are new. If they came into the orbit of the Embodied Podcast, they’re one of us. I could feel people probably having this, “Aha.” And something I like to talk about in debunk is this notion that you have to love yourself before you can love other people. And you said exactly how I like to clarify that statement is it’s not that it, it is the availability and it’s the receptivity. The more you love yourself, the more you are able to actually notice and take in the love that’s already around you. So it’s not that, oh, I can’t love people until I love myself. It’s that, I’m not gonna perceive the love around me to the same degree as when I have more for myself. That’s kind of how I edit that a little because I just don’t think that’s true. So I’m curious for your nuance take on that, if you have one.

– Yeah, I mean, I just, I think– I mean, I guess the feeling, the nuance is that like– I’m just gonna talk about my personal experience right now. What I’ve noticed is like the people I’ve been meeting here have been so generous, you being one of them, right. But since I got here, these women have been super generous and I’ve been able to take it in and really see it for what it is. So there’s this piece around me being able to like acknowledge it first and then it’s like a loop, right? It’s this feedback loop or this like flow, like yin yang flow. So I take it in and then I notice this and then I’m able to give back, like, it inspires me to be generous too. And so, I mean, this doesn’t, I don’t know if this actually answers your question, but it’s the first thing that popped in my head of this, like allowing this flow of like receiving in giving and how that continues, this like expansion, you know, and before you know, you’re just a big old ball of fucking love.

– Yeah, seriously. And you’re not using this word, but what it sounds like to me is reciprocity.

– Yes, yes, exactly.

– Right, so there’s actually, it’s like, “Oh, look at all this coming at me. “Great.” And, and there’s this natural reciprocity, not this like codependent reciprocity out of obligation.

– Absolutely. Oh my God. I did that for many, many years. So I know what that looks like.

– Yeah, yeah.

– And that was an inspiration for me to do the work because it was so fucking painful, you know, to be in those kind of, like being a martyr, being a rescuer, trying to always save and fix people. It’s like, I only did that for myself, you know. I wasn’t doing it to really support other people. It was really my own need to feel needed and to fill my, what I called this God size hole, right? It’s like this hungry ghost that needed– ‘Cause I wasn’t able to fully take in the real love, I created a different way of feeling loved, which was false. Does that make sense?

– It makes a lot of sense. We talk about codependency a lot over the years and that is, you know, something to talk about, like codependency is not love. Codependency is very transactional, right? So when you don’t have access, when you can’t receive and you can’t experience like real, genuine love, that’s like honest, our only association is this like transactional, “Oh, well that means love.”

– Yep.

– Before we really understand the difference between love and codependency. ‘Cause I mean, codependency on paper can appear wonderful. Look at all the things this person does for me. Or man, I could call that person if I need someone. But it’s like, no. Our wounds are just like locked in and activating each other and just feeding off of each other. There’s a big difference than that like natural, organic reciprocity that you’re talking about. I love that.

– Yeah. And it just feels good, you know. Like in my body, like the sensations that I feel or the relaxation that I feel in my body, it’s completely different than how I was when I was codependent. There was such a tension in relationships and dynamics in myself and like always worrying about how I’m impacting somebody. ‘Cause I was always tiptoeing somehow.

– Yeah.

– Concerned about how people thought about me and, you know, how I came off and now it’s like, no, I can just be myself. I have my boundaries, like boundaries, just 101, you know, around codependency. And like now I trust that people can take care of themself.

– Yes.

– I don’t need to be responsible for other people’s processes. And I don’t want to.

– Yeah. And if they can’t, that’s their business. Yeah.

– It’s absolutely their business. And like you were talking about earlier about transactional, it’s like, yeah, this is not a commerce based relationship, right. Even if you pay me to be in my program, I still do not owe you in a particular way that is based on codependency. You see?

– Yeah.

– There will be a reciprocity, an energy that’s given, received, but not in the way that you may think it needs to look.

– Yeah. And this is interesting. This is a fun thing to talk about. I don’t really get this ’cause I have like pretty good boundaries, especially energetic boundaries around this. And I would probably be surprised if you get this, but I’ve certainly seen this happen in the past for people. I have felt this way in the past with people I’ve worked with, especially people I’ve paid a lot, like to the tune of five figures, to where there’s like this entitlement like, “Well, I’ve given you money.” And it’s like, you gave me money for a bulleted list of things that were very clearly laid out on this page over here. And that is it, right? Some people really think that because they paid someone that they’re owed whatever the fuck they want.

– Absolutely. And that’s why like, you know, if I have a VIP in their– I’m not just gonna say yes to anybody, you know, just because they have a shitload of money and they can throw it at me, doesn’t mean I’m gonna be a yes. Like that entitlement around that is a turnoff for me. Like I have to feel the desire, I have to feel that connection and that resonance, you know, and your willingness to do the work, ’cause a lot of times when somebody’s just throwing money and thinks that that’s how they can get in the door, says to me that they might not be willing to actually do the real work, you know, that’s needed.

– It’s just an extraction. I had a man I met back in the fall before I decided I was not interested in dating anymore. And when I told him I wasn’t interested, on our date, we had talked about what I do and like a couple weeks later he reached out and he was like, “Hey, I’m actually really interested in working with you. “Do you ever work with men?” And I thought about it and I thought about saying yes, I was certainly gonna charge him more because that would’ve been like the effort for me, would’ve been a different proportion. It would’ve been a different exchange than working with my women clients. And what I actually decided is I don’t want to, I didn’t like him as a person. Like I wouldn’t have even wanted to be friends with this person. Like I don’t wanna work with him. I’m not interested. And so I found a couple different like men’s programs, groups, whatever. I sent him some other links to some stuff. And it basically turned out that that was his way of being able to spend time with me. He thought, “Well maybe if I just pay her.”

– Exactly. I’m not an escort.

– Yeah. I was like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Like no. Extra no. You know, ’cause when I sent him those things, I was like, “Hey, you know, if you really wanna work on these things, “here’s some men’s group. “Like this might be more appropriate.” And he was like, “No, I’m not interested in doing that. “I just wanted to spend time with you.” And I was like–

– Wow, he said that?

– Yeah. I was like, “Ew, I’m so–” Again, my body like, gotta love discernment. I’m so glad my body was like, “Ugh.” Like there was a moment of wanting to really believe and be like, yeah, look at this man. Like wanting to step up and learn and you know, respect the feminine. And he was like, “No.” Just trying retract me.

– That’s interesting. I just wanna say that, like I just mentioned escort, like I see nothing wrong with being an escort.

– Yes.

– You know, I just wanna put that out there in sex workers. I’m also, you know, I pro whatever somebody wants to do, but you know, there’s escorts that are discerning and there’s escorts that are not. So, you know, which kind do you wanna be? So that’s with any kind of relationship, but yeah. I love that example. It’s like, no, I’m not– Not any kind of money can pay for me, you know? You have to feel it. You have to feel that desire.

– Totally. And the alignment.

– Yeah.

– So you talk a lot– Well, I know– And in your descriptions on things, I’ve seen you refer to yourself as a mystic and a medicine woman. So I’m super curious, I actually just posted something about this yesterday. How would you define mystic or how do you relate to being a mystic?

– That’s a good question. I haven’t actually defined it before, ’cause it’s just like a feeling to me, but you know, I’m gonna go for it and see. To me a mystic is someone who is in the realm of connecting to spirit and allowing that relationship to guide them through the world. So I guess a lot of people would be a mystic if that’s, you know, it’s not– I think a lot of times when people, and I think you wrote about this in the post, like a lot of people may not identify as a mystic, but they really are because a lot of times word, you know, is like, “Ooh,” it’s like, “Ooh, so woo-hoo.” You know, but I think there are like a lot of practical mystics. Like I’m very practical. I got Capricorn moon and rising. Like I’m super practical in my work, but I’m also very tapped in and tuned in into that other realm. So, and yeah, for me, like I’m not a super woo-hoo person, like in the way that like it– It’s not about the external, I think that’s really what I wanna say. Like I think a lot of people will act like a mystic, but are not really mystical. You see what I’m saying? And vice versa. So like, it’s just about how that tapped in, like trusting that relationship and that knowing, you know?

– Yeah. And that’s in part what my post was about yesterday, it was actually inspired by someone we know told me that they had sent an episode of this podcast to a friend of theirs and the person was like, “I stopped listening. “I couldn’t when she called herself a mystic.” And I was like, that’s fascinating because that person does work that’s like kind of tangential to what we do. So I was like, “Huh. “So how do they relate to things?” Like, why are they so turned off by that word? I wonder like, what is their association or their relationship, which I don’t know much about that person, but that got me thinking about a other people who like say and do things like that. And I always just think that that’s really interesting. It’s fascinating to me. Many years ago, I decided– I can be very judgemental. I also have Capricorn moon. I’m not saying Capricorn. Why? But I’m not not saying that. I know you have some good Virgo placements too, don’t you?

– Venus and Virgo. I don’t know how good that is. That makes it very hard for me–

– What I meant by good was like strong. Like it’s in like you’re big, they call that like the big six, right? Your son, your moon, you’re rising, your vircury– Your vircury. My Mercury is in Virgo, so I just put them right together there. You’re Mercury, Mars and Venus. So yeah, I have that Capricorn. There’s another reason why we get along. ‘Cause you got some Virgo and we got that Capricorn moon. Shit doesn’t bother us the way it bothers a lot of other people.

– You think so? I think I’m different ’cause I do get bothered by things. Like what doesn’t bother you?

– I don’t take a lot of things personally, like other people’s opinions of me and stuff, those kinds of things.

– I do take those things personally.

– My friend described it– I guess because the moon is a lot about how you relate to your emotions. So a Capricorn moon is more likely to have like just some structure around how they process their emotions.

– Okay.

– So I translate that into, I don’t take a lot of things personally, ’cause to me it’s a waste of time.

– It is absolutely a waste of time.

– Right. And that probably has the influence of my Virgos. Other couple Virgo placements, you know, we’re also different.

– And that’s probably why you’re so good with, like you said, you’ve been like a natural at public speaking since you were young, you know? And so like you’re not giving a fuck about what people think, has made its own.

– That’s part of it. And also I think the Venus Mars being in Leo, like I’m just very comfortable in front of people.

– Oh yeah. That too.

– But, and so, and it makes sense, like what you were sharing, we’re gonna talk about your podcast in a little bit. About feeling like a little nervous and self-conscious about that and the visibility stuff you do. ‘Cause that’s where your perfectionism shows, right. And how you’re presenting yourself to the world.

– Yes.

– Wanting it to be like detailed and like that’s very, that’s very Venusian.

– Yes. And you’ve been super inspiring for me because like, you know, you’re so at this place in your practice with your podcast and your business that you’re like, “Whatever, it is what it is,” you know. And that’s the beauty of it. Like that is beautiful. That’s what I love about what you share and how you share it because people don’t want perfect. I don’t want perfect. You know, so it’s this whole illusion that is like, not even true.

– Right.

– So yeah, for me, it’s been really a great practice and process for me to let go of, you know, I feel like I’m like a recovering perfectionist, you know? And yeah, my first one I’m like, you know what? It’s not perfect. I’m okay. Like right now I feel fucking great about it, whatever.

– So exciting. And what’s amazing about that– Anyone who’s listening, who could relate to being a perfectionist in any way, we started like literally at this table where I’m sitting, is where the first time I ever had a conversation with you about a podcast, was at your birthday party that I had here. So I think we did that like November 11th or something, or the 20th. And then, so what is this? November, December, January, February, March, April. So a little more than four months later, you had it out the door, which is like, and I know I was hyping you up in the text messages, but I’m saying this for people listening too. Do you know how often people have ideas and they’re talking about doing something? People will about doing creative things for years. I actually remember many, many years ago we got an email from someone who was looking for donations to buy a new laptop or something because they had like a number of unpublished novels on this laptop that died or something like that. And I was like, damn, can you imagine writing more than one novel and not putting it out into the– Not putting any of them out into the world and then you lose it.

– If that’s not a wake up call, I don’t know what is.

– I was like, “Damn.” Like life is showing this person what– Whew, intense. But you got your shit out in four months. It’s such a big deal.

– I’m kind of impressed with myself. Like I couldn’t– Yeah, like, wow. ‘Cause I was so– It felt so true. And it was just like, you know what? There’s no time like the present. I have this energy that’s building in me. So like I need to use this momentum of energy towards this creation.

– Totally.

– Let me, like while I have this energy, let me resource it. And your support has like, and like a bunch of people’s support, has been like so crucial in this. So I couldn’t do it alone, you know.

– Right, it takes a freaking village.

– It really, really does. And like, I’m really proud of it. It was a whole nother name. It was gonna be an illustration for the cover. It went through so many processes.

– Yeah.

– Like the amount of decisions that you need to make for these kinds of things is so– It’s like unlimited. It’s like these little nuanced things that you normally don’t even think about.

– Yeah. Listen, and for people listening who like don’t do this type of thing, that’s what people don’t realize. They get the finished products. They don’t realize like the 17 tasks in my project management software that needs to happen across like four or five different people to get one of these episodes out, you know.

– Totally, yeah.

– It’s so much work, but it’s so fun. It’s such a great way to connect, to be able to share. And like you were saying, I barely ever let a episode of this show go by without mentioning Caroline Mace these days. But I was listening to her Advanced Energy Anatomy audio recently. And that was one of the things she was saying is some people’s health problems do come from unexpressed, unrealized creativity.

– Oh, 100%.

– If there’s so much energy building up and you don’t do anything with it and you don’t use it, like what happens in your system? That creates a different, you know– We think about getting congested. Like when you have a cold while energetically, we get congested when we don’t– And what’s happening your nose? The mucus can’t move through something, whatever. If your creativity can’t move through, there’s a congestion.

– Absolutely.

– And what’s gonna happen?

– That’s what happened to me while I wrote a book, you know. It’s not a book that I’m like, oh, I wanna like necessarily share right now, because it’s not like my body of work, you know. It’s not what I would write today, but it was so perfect for that time because I did feel congested creatively, and I needed to open up that throat shocker. I needed to like get this project out and move that energy. So for that, it was exactly what I needed and it really did. It opened up this whole new space for me, just from that one project.

– Quick break in the show, everybody to direct your attention towards three new things that I have for you. The first is some free morning and evening Sacred Embodiment rituals. If you go to, you can get your gorgeous hands on those rituals. It is a 33-page ebook with some prayers, some playlist recommendations, serpent meditation, an energetic attunement to the frequency of love using the imagery of a rose. It’s just really juicy. So you definitely wanna check that out. As well, you can now drop in and take an Embodiment class with me every single week at the Serpent and Rose Studio. So if you wanna check out the schedule, go to for that. And if you live here in or around in Miami, I am teaching twice a month locally in Miami. So make sure you check the schedule for Miami classes. And then last but not least, if you are looking for a grown up grounded, sensual, supportive, inclusive container and community to do your healing and transformation and growth work in, make sure you check out the Wild Soul Sacred Body Community. That is my year long container for all of that. And you can visit that at, as in Wild Soul Sacred Body. All of that stuff can also be found at the show notes page or at the link in my bio, on my Instagram profile. So, now you know everything we got going on. Back to the episode. And it’s funny ’cause you and I, we did the same program and I feel the same exact–

– Oh, you did that program too!

– Yes. I did it in 2015. What year did you do it?

– 2019, I think.

– So you got a much different version of it than I did. But I remember I’ve always called that book a creative digestive enzyme. I’m like, I had to get this outta my system so I could move on with my life.

– Oh my God. You know, like we just keep on finding like new things that are in common with each other. You’re not like trying to market this book. It’s not a thing that you would–

– Even when we were doing the website, the developer was like, “Hey, do you want me to put the Amazon icon on the website?” I was like, “Nope.” I’m not trying to talk about that book.

– Right, exactly. ‘Cause you know, there’s lots of gems in that book, but it’s just like, yeah. It happened too fast.

– Yeah. And it was ’cause it was a 90-day process.

– Yeah.

– Also, that was seven years ago. I’ve been 15 different people since then.

– Yo, that shit is so fucking real. I have five placements in Scorpio, you all. So like my whole life is a constant death and rebirth, like, yeah, just from 2019, I feel like I’ve been through lifetimes. I totally get that. Like who the fuck am I now?

– Every morning I wake up, I’m like, “Who are you gonna be today, bitch?”

– Right.

– You have to laugh about it because it’s so intense.

– It is, it’s super intense. It’s super intense. It’s like the life of, you know, not only a mystic, but like being in the leadership position too, because as a guide or a teacher in this realm, like we have to continue to shed, like that is part of– We are not just teaching people, we’re doing the work so that we can continue to do that.

– And I feel like that’s spiritual integrity. That’s how life keeps us honest. I always say that, even in my Embodiment specialist training now, some of the women are really getting worked and I’m like, good. This is exactly what should be happening. Because by the time you finish this training, you’re gonna have gone through, so much stuff is gonna be shed, you’re gonna be in so much more integrity as a facilitator because you’ve cleared out so much more. And so I actually set up the training that way, that the first half of it, we do personal work. And then the second half we get into facilitation. We’re not even touching facilitation until like five or six months of doing–

– Totally. Yeah, that’s necessary. And you know, it’s like, everybody has their, like, I guess it’s like, you know, it’s like on the ground work, you know, like in the soil. And for me, a lot of it, I mean, it’s still happening, but like for me being an acupuncturist, that was huge training for me. ‘Cause every time I’d work with somebody, I would see myself in them, you know. I’d see my reflection in like times that I would be out of integrity and like recommending somebody to do a practice when I wasn’t doing it myself, you know, or something like that. And I just saw all these ways that were like gifts for me to like make my own adjustments and my healing, you know?

– Yeah. I mean, I’ve said this for years, I saw someone else wrote about this recently. I forget who it was or where it was, but it was like fairly often we should be listening to the advice that comes out of our own mouths. Whether you’re a teacher or not, you know, whoever you are, you’re giving other people advice you might wanna consider, “How am I doing with that right now?”

– Yep, totally.

– This is perfect Segway because the other thing that I wanted to come to was, you know, your definition or how you relate to being a medicine woman. ‘Cause this is an interesting thing. When I released my Wild Soul Archetypes Quiz in 2020, which it’s currently not on the website, we’re updating that too. One of the archetypes is medicine woman. And I got a note from a person. It was a lovely note. They weren’t like trying to cancel me. They weren’t being a jerk or anything like that, but they were like, “Hey, you know, I’m wondering about like use “of the term medicine woman.” ‘Cause they were of the opinion that it should be reserved for indigenous people only. And for me personally well, and what I appreciate that they did, she was like, “I don’t know if you have any indigenous roots,” which I do from my great-grandmother, who was Taino from Puerto Rico. But there’s just so many different kinds of medicine.

– Exactly, exactly. There’s so many kinds and it’s like, there’s the energetic, it’s not always plant medicine. It’s not always of like mother earth, you know? So there’s like so many levels to it. And for me, you know, medicine woman is that like, I deliver medicine with my words, you know, with my truth telling, you know. Sometimes I need to like bring out my blade and like, you know, penetrate something that somebody needs to see in themself in a loving way. But sometimes like not in a fluffy way, do you know what I mean? And sometimes it is more on the plant side, so there’s a whole range. And I think that it’s not just for– I feel like anybody could be, and I’m not the type of person who’s gonna limit somebody, what they consider themselves.

– Right.

– That’s just how I feel about it.

– There’s a lot of things that actually are culturally appropriative, but that one, medicine is just such a broad term and it’s also a translation, right? Like if this is the English word that encompasses all of these things, like what do indigenous people call themselves? Like, that one’s a real fuzzy, like gray kind of very, very, very nuanced one. And I’m sure some people listening might like vehemently disagree with that and that’s totally cool. But yeah, for that, I was like, there’s just so many, like there’s the medicine from your soul, from your past lives that you get through your Akashic records, whether you realize you’re tapping into your Akashic records or not, we all have medicine from our ancestors. We all have ancestors and there’s some medicine coming through there, right. There’s medicine that we learn, we actually train here. And I think it’s important to like attribute where that stuff comes from and things like that. But yeah, that word for me, I was like, there’s too much nuance here to go only this group of people should be allowed to use this term, you know?

– Yeah, absolutely.

– I mean, for me, I was like coming, you know, this whole thing about creating a bio, by the way, I still need to send your personal bio for this. It’s so hard for me ’cause I’m like, how do I even describe what I do. You know what I mean? Like that’s why I even wrote those two, mystic and medicine women. I’m also like an embodiment teacher. I’m also a spiritual guide. Like there’s, you know, I’m an energy and somatic healer, like there’s all these things, but like it’s just hard, you know? Like what the fuck do I do?

– Yeah.

– I don’t know. Let me just say these things ’cause it’s a big umbrella.

– Literally, whenever people ask me what you do, I like take a deep breath and I’m like, and I assess the situation. I’m like, what answer do I wanna give this person? But that’s actually why I started, that’s why I called my training Embodiment Specialist Training. And now I’m calling everything Sacred Embodiment. For me, that kind of encompasses– Like the Virgo in me wanted like a tidy term, you know, I could be like, I’m a mystic and I’m a sacred embodiment specialist. And if someone wants to be like, “What does that mean?” I could be like, “How much time you got?”

– I love that. I love that. I need to come up with my tidy term ’cause I really am like craving that.

– Yeah, and that’s why I used medicine woman for a while. And that was why I’m like, that really does describe because the biggest thing, and I think you do this too in your own way is we’re helping people to access their own medicine, the medicine within, right. We’re not being like, “I’m the great and powerful with this medicine.” Like no, no, no.

– Yeah.

– Each have our own medicine. We help you access yours. ‘Cause ultimately even people who call themselves healers, we’re facilitating healing. I’m not healing anyone.

– Exactly. That’s the thing. I think there’s a lot of like misunderstandings around that term and also misuse of the term. But sometimes I’ll use healer because it’s true. It’s not that– Yeah. It’s not that my power is overtaking you.

– Totally.

– Yeah. It’s just that I’m reminding, like, let’s say with acupuncture, I’m putting needles in you intuitively in places that I feel are resonant and then your body naturally heals itself from that, right. So yeah, that’s– There’s so many semantics and nuance around it.

– I know. And we live in a time where people really wanna pull every little fucking thing apart and I’m like, how exhausting is that?

– It really is.

– And ask me how I know. I used to do that shit. I used to make these posts on Instagram where I would like circle and highlight things and then write some post about it. And listen, that, it had its use because it was demonstrating critical thinking and building an analysis. But there’s a really fine line though, between critical thinking and just being a critical bitch.

– Right, exactly. Just trying to cancel– Like canceling people in a way.

– Right. Which you know, I’m not, I’ve never really been into cancel culture. I have been into like, I’m not into this person and let me tell you why, like I’ll just be straight up about that. You know, I’m not gonna– If someone ask me, I’m gonna be like, “Yeah, I think that person is like dangerous “and problematic.” And this, that, and the other thing. But I don’t wish them harm. I don’t want them to like go burn in hell. Like I want them to do better. I want them to like, get it and start treating people better and you know, whatever. So yeah, that’s really interesting. But I feel like a lot of people are calming down around that now. I think people are coming to see how cancel culture, there’s this great Audre Lorde quote that says, “The master’s tools “will never dismantle the master’s house.” And I think a lot of people are realizing how that’s all cancel culture is. It’s just more the same, but pointing the arrow in a different direction. So that’s actually not gonna help us get liberated in any way.

– Absolutely. I mean, I love that quote and I love that you say master’s, ’cause some people like to change that quote around into another word and it’s like, no, let’s use– This is totally off topic.

– Really? I’ve never heard that.

– Yeah, I mean– Okay, I’ve heard a couple of white leaders, like leaders, meaning like in this realm that we’re working in, switch the quote around. Because I think they may have felt uncomfortable with using the word master.

– Right, I understand.

– You know?

– Yeah. So anyway, I always appreciate it when I hear somebody say the quote as it’s supposed to be.

– Well, ’cause it’s a real quote from a real person who said it.

– Exactly.

– Let’s honor the person by saying what they freaking said, now.

– Yeah, yeah.

– Ah, all right. There’s something else. I love the way you talk about this. Can you tell us, talk about the pain body.

– Ooh. Yeah, it’s such a juicy topic for me because I’m so familiar with it. I mean, I think everybody is, but not everybody’s intimately–

– Well, and I also don’t think a lot of people, some people are really familiar with it, but they don’t realize that that’s what they’ve been working with.

– Yeah, so–

– People might not have the context.

– Yeah. So just like God has different, you know, source and all that. There’s interchangeable words with that. I would say the pain body is also trauma, which is also unprocessed pain. They’re all similar, right? This is all unprocessed pain. And trauma doesn’t always mean like a trauma with a big “T.” It could be trauma with a small “T.” It’s all how it’s been living in the body. And so anytime trauma or pain happens, then it lives in the body and that’s why we call it the pain body. So the way I teach it is that there’s the pain body and then there’s also the ego slash mind aspect. We can do the work around beliefs, but that’s not enough because when we have this trauma or unprocessed pain in our body, then that’s what also creates like this natural addiction, for lack of a better word. Or maybe it’s a good word, like addiction to whatever it is. It could be like drama, workaholism, you name it, alcohol. The pain body wants more of the same, you know, it wants more of that pain. And so it’s important and crucial if we wanna be liberated as a person that we alchemize and heal the pain body and process the trauma, which means– What does processing trauma mean? It means allowing yourself to be with it, right. To feel the things that are living inside of your body. The body is like such, you know, I know you’d probably teach this with your people. Like the body is such a magical and mysterious space.

– Yeah.

– It’s a whole ecosystem. And like when we allow ourselves the space to be with what lives in there, all kinds of memories and feelings and, you know, experiences start to surface and arise. And so often people are distracting themselves because they don’t want to feel those sensations. They don’t wanna feel those emotions. And so, yeah, it becomes even more of a magical process when you allow yourself to surrender into it. Like I’ve experienced moments where I would be triggered by somebody. So this is a great way to start to process unprocessed pain, which is these activations that you might have can lead you right into this pain body, right. That’s why there’s such gifts, these activations. And so like letting yourself– Like I had this activation with somebody, an ex lover of mine a few years ago and I went home and I just started crying. And then I felt this sensation in my chest. It was like a tightness. And I just let myself sit with it and feel it, not trying to change it, not trying to do anything with it, literally just being with it. And then all of a sudden this memory came up. It was one of my first rape actually. And I was a teenager and literally this memory arose from the sensation. And then the sensation went down into my second chakra and I had this whole mystical experience where I was brought back into that memory, face to face with this person, but it was different. It wasn’t me back then. It was me now in my 13 year old body, looking into the eyes of this man with new eyes, I saw his pain. I saw his hurt. And there was this alchemy that happened in this moment where I forgave him and forgave myself. And there was this– It was wild. I just clicked right into it. And there’s more to the story, but all that to say that the reason why this all came up is because when I was with my lover that I got angry at and had this activation with, it was because I had put on, projected onto him that he was being a perpetrator. So you see how the sensations in my body were so wise and knew where it needed to guide me in order to heal this piece.

– So that you could stop putting the face of the perpetrator on other people.

– Exactly. Particularly men.

– Yup. And what I love about that is that you described it as alchemy. You described it as mystical. And the reason why it’s both of that is because no one taught you how to do that.

– No.

– You just went home and let yourself feel.

– Exactly. I have chills. Ooh, I got chills right now because, yeah, it was because I was so willing to be surrendered and present in that experience. That’s how alchemy happens. It’s not a forcing, you’re not trying to get to a goal. I wasn’t trying to heal this old wound, you know. It wasn’t even on my mind, it’s not a mental process. It’s like, it’s something that just happens when we allow our bodies to relax into that moment.

– And I wanna note two things. So I think it’s just important around trauma, depending on who’s listening and where they are in their own journey. At that juncture, you had already done a significant amount of like trauma healing. You had awareness, you had whatever. So your availability to feel that and your ability to be safe in that experience, did have healing work leading up to it, right?

– Absolutely. Oh my God. So much.

– I wanna put that out there. ‘Cause we’re not saying, “If you’ve never done any trauma healing, “next time you get triggered, just go home and cry it out.” We’re not saying that.

– It’s a process.

– Yeah, it’s a process. But you had some foundational safety in your nervous system, experience, letting yourself feel things, context for surrendering and feel– Like you understood the chakras, like all these things, like you had context.

– And allowed people to hold space for me.

– Yeah.

– Right, so that was key. Most of the foundation that I learned from was in community.

– Yeah.

– That’s so important. Like, you know, I wouldn’t have gotten that foundation if I didn’t have my community supporting me.

– So that afforded you the ability in that moment to have that experience on your own.

– Absolutely, absolutely. So it’s like, I think a lot of times what happens is people are like, “I’m not there.” You know? It’s like, they’re not close to– They’re just beginning and that’s okay. We start where we are, you know? And I think at first, the first step is just to know that you’re even like having this pain body in your, you know, like how it’s projecting in your life, just having that kinda awareness is a great place to start.

– Yeah. And even noticing like the overreactions, right. Because often when we’re in one of those, the proportion of the response to what actually just happened, it’s such a disproportionate response. It’s like, wow, why am I behaving like this in reaction to that? Like, that hit some other button in me. But with the other thing I love about this and I’m– This is my theory. And I’ve actually been teaching this for many years. So I’m curious in your experience as a healer in all the different ways that you do healing work, how you feel about this. I always tell people like, something like that, that was ready to go. That’s why it came up. I’m like, we don’t need– Because like you said, it’s not a mental process. We don’t need to excavate. Like I know some people who like, that’s a big distraction in healing, right? Excavate. What’s next? What’s next? What do I need to heal? What’s wrong with me? What needs to be fixed? And I’m like, no, I just live my life. And when something comes up, I’m like, cool, something’s ready to be healed because it’s triggering the fuck out of me or agitating me or distracting me or really upsetting me.

– This is a huge part of my teachings. And it comes back to that word spontaneous.

– Yeah.

– Like healing, the way I see it, is all spontaneous if we allow it. And life is going to show you. You don’t have to dig for shit.

– Life is always showing you. Every day.

– Every fucking day, you know. So you don’t need to look for anything. It’s going to come up. What happens is, are you willing to just look and be with what comes up?

– Yeah. Yeah. But you know, and some people do, you said earlier about different addictions and distractions. Some people really get compulsive about healing. Like they’re always working on something or they’re not healing. And I’m like, okay, but you also need to relish in the things you’ve already healed, or whatever degree to which you’ve already heal some stuff, you know?

– Well, you know, that’s interesting ’cause big part of healing is digestion, rest and digest. And I think a lot of times people don’t realize that’s a major portion of healing. It’s, you know, it’s just like when you eat food, right? The digestive system needs time. You can’t keep on eating food and shoving it down your face and think that it’s gonna be okay. You need time to let it move on its own and do its thing in the gut and the spleen and all that. So how I like to explain it is like, every time you digest and allow the integration to happen, because if you don’t integrate, it’s like quick sand. And so every time we allow ourselves to celebrate or have gratitude for the work we’ve done and how much we’ve changed or shifted, then that solidifies this next level of foundation. Now you’re here. But if you don’t digest it, you kind of bring it back down. You know, it is like a slippery slope. So it’s like a step that cannot be skipped.

– Yeah. But a lot of people skip it ’cause they wanna just rush into the next thing.

– Yeah.

– And then they’re not getting the results. I call that being in the hamster wheel of healing. Then they’re not getting a result or things aren’t improving and they feel like they’re backsliding all the time, but they’re not, they just haven’t integrated.

– Yep. It’s all about the integration.

– They’ve done the work. Totally. Okay, so in wrapping up, tell us about the Tao of Po.

– OMG. Well first I wanna say that Tao of Po was my acupuncture practice name and I was coming, trying to figure out the fricking name, right. I was going in circles and I was like walking, you know, I get my downloads when I’m in movement. And so I was just walking, taking a nature walk and all sudden I was like Tao of Po, it’s been under my nose this whole time. And I texted you. And I was like, “Oh my God.” But Tao of Po is my love child right now, my new birth of a podcast. And there’s three different types of episodes. The first is solo transmissions from my heart where I talk about like my life experiences and teachings connected to that. So transmissions that I feel like can really be supportive of people’s process. Two is like, yeah, these kind of conversations, like these real ass conversations with real ass people, you know, sharing about their life story. And like it’s really about, you know, normalizing humanity, humanness, and also the connection with the divine. And so we talk about all kinds of topics. I just had a really juicy topic about like kink yesterday, which I was like, yes. And grief and all the things, you know. And the third is inner child alchemy sessions. So I work with people and I let people witness these sessions, which are super intimate and vulnerable. It’s been really fun and I’m really excited. And yesterday was the launch!

– It’s in all the places. It’s in all the places. And we’ll put a link to it in the show notes. So people can go check out the podcast. I’m so proud of you and so excited for you.

– Thank you.

– And that’s it. Is there anything else you wanna send the people to and make sure that they see?

– No, just like, you know, come check out my Instagram or Facebook and my website. And if you wanna connect with me, reach out.

– Great. And we’ll make sure there’s links to everything in the show notes. Yay! Thank you so much for being here. I love you.

– I love you.

– Bye.

– Bye. Thank you, babes.