Christopher Rivas is a multi-talented, multi-dimensional writer, speaker, and storyteller to name just a few of his skills. He’s the author of the soon-to-be published book Brown Enough and creator of the Rubirosa podcast. His work encourages us to ask deeper questions about our culture, our histories, and our relationships to the people in our lives.
Today, he’s the first man I’ve had on the Embodied podcast in two years. Christopher Rivas and I talk about how we both relate to our Brownness, how whiteness and capitalism have, intentionally or not, separated us from aspects of our cultural heritage, and how storytelling can connect us with pieces of our history we feel removed from.
Christopher shares story after story with us in this episode, from humorous anecdotes about a ridiculously placed shower to heartfelt recollections of how his work allowed his father to reflect on his own assimilation into white culture.
I hope this episode encourages you to keep digging into your own healing and your ancestral history, to keep reaching out with empathy and understanding to those around you, and to learn to build your own stories that can connect you with your own individual culture and your inner self.
In episode 401 of the Embodied Podcast we discuss:
- [01:19] An introduction to Christopher and his work on storytelling
- [08:43] How Christopher’s dating life helped him to reevaluate what he’d been taught about whiteness, beauty, and culture
- [13:02] Defining “body of culture” and how it affects Brown people
- [17:31] How Christopher’s father and his assimilation into white culture influenced Christopher’s work
- [21:22] The healing effect that Christopher’s storytelling work has had on his father and his ability to connect to his original culture
- [27:38] The craziest story about LA and inappropriately installed showers from Christopher’s book
- [33:32] How learning a new language can be a deeply humbling and empathic experience
- [40:41] How Christopher views climate and infrastructure reform as an opportunity to express empathy and care for our neighbors
- [44:15] How Christopher discovered the real James Bond (he was Dominican) and why he became so determined to share this story with the rest of world
- [51:39] Why stories like Rubirosa offer everyone, regardless of their culture, an opportunity to challenge their heroes and ask better questions about their history
- [59:33] Why accepting your multidimensionality and rejecting the “boxes” society places us in can open you up to new realities
Resources mentioned by Elizabeth in episode 401 “Brown Enough with Christopher Rivas”:
- Visit Christopher on Instagram
- Listen to Christopher’s podcast Rubirosa
- Pre-order Christopher’s book Brown Enough
- See Christopher’s other projects on his website
- Sign up for the Full Moon Wild Soul Flow class on Oct 7th
- Join our Embodied Community
- Join The Wild Soul Sacred Body Membership
- Email us with questions or feedback
- Don’t miss an episode of The Embodied Podcast
Quotes from this Week’s Episode of the Embodied Podcast:
-
[00:09:55] Christopher Rivas: I just started to think about whiteness and how it has been sold to me, whether I knew it or not, and how it is branded into me as the most beautiful thing. And so when I walked into a space, I began to ask myself, Why do I think she’s pretty and I’m less attracted to her?
-
[00:13:21] Christopher Rivas: They’re not trying to take our color. They’re trying to take our culture. And that’s what assimilation is. You take our culture and you try to make us like you. You try to make us like whiteness. You try to flatten us or quiet us or dim us to fit your standards.
-
[00:19:44] Christopher Rivas: Something that I love about the type of art I make is I allow people to show me who they are and that seeing their genius allows me to learn about this world.
-
[00:35:25] Christopher Rivas: I’ll try and learn any language and then think about all these people who came here and didn’t know the language and then learned it and survived and made a life and didn’t get a green card and paid the rent. […] Put yourself in someone else’s shoes. It’s hard to adapt to a new culture, number one, and then you’ve got to learn their language.
-
[00:40:46] Christopher Rivas: I believe climate issues are just representative of human issues, how we love each other, how we care for each other, how we think about each other. If we can’t do it for the planet, we can’t do it for our neighbors. I believe that deep down in my heart. It takes a second of thinking about something in someone other than yourself.
-
[00:43:57] Christopher Rivas: Patient Summer. Good Brother Summer. Great writer Summer. Artist Summer. Good Lover Summer. Good Friends Summer. I believe in seasons and allowing seasons to exist in your life and then evolve as they will.
-
[00:51:58] Christopher Rivas: I made it for brownness, I made it for culture. I made it so that we ask questions of our culture and of our politics and of our beliefs and of our parents and of our people and of our ancestors. I made it as an invitation to say there is so much wisdom and hurt in you, and it’s time we start making love to them a little bit and listening to them.
-
[00:52:50] Christopher Rivas: It is universal in that way that it is good to challenge your heroes and it is good to ask questions of your life and the people in your life. There’s always more than we think there is.
-
[00:59:59] Christopher Rivas: Honor what you need to honor when you need to honor it. […] Today in this world, we are tempted to define who we are. […] We put the things in the boxes that show the image of who we are. And I think it’s a real trap to everything. A box can’t contain you.
How was this episode for you?
Was this episode helpful for you today? I’d love to know what quote or lesson touched your soul. Let me know in the comments below OR share the episode on Instagram, tag me your stories @elizabethdialto, or send me a DM!
About the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto
Since 2013 I’ve been developing a body of work that helps women embody self-love, healing, and wholeness. We do this by focusing on the four levels of consciousness – physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.
In practical terms, this looks like exploring tools and practices to help you tune into the deep wisdom of the body and the knowing of the heart, which I believe are gateways to our souls. Then we cultivate a new relationship with our minds that allows the mind to serve this wisdom and knowledge and soul connection, rather than override it, which is what many of us were taught.
If you’ve been doing self-help or spiritual development work for a while, these are the types of foundational things that often people overlook in pursuit of fancier concepts that often aren’t practical or sustainable. Here, we will focus on building these strong foundations so you can honestly and thoroughly embody self-love. If you’re feeling it, subscribe to the show, and leave us a review wherever you listen from. You can also keep up with show updates and community discussion on Instagram here.
Transcript for Episode 401 “Brown Enough with Christopher Rivas“:
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Welcome, welcome, welcome to The EMBODIED Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto, where we’re always questioning systems, programming and conditioning, and exploring the truths within us and around us in a way that enables us to contribute to collective healing, joy, and liberation. Everything we talk about here is meant to illuminate, inspire, and integrate the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual aspects of life so that we can untame our wild souls, harness the power of our sacred bodies and be the fierce, loving and mystical beings we came here to be.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
This podcast has been around since 2015. We have over three million downloads, listeners all over the world, and I just love you all so much, even if you’re brand new. I love you and I thank you and I appreciate you for being here with me, being here with our guests, for giving us your time. And as a reminder, one of the other things I’m always out to cultivate here through the podcast, are critical thinking skills and curious listening skills. So, keep your heart open, keep your mind open, stay curious, stay humble and remember, you don’t have to agree with everything. Pay attention for what resonates for you, what lands for you, what works for you, and feel free to go ahead and ditch anything that doesn’t.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Hello everybody. Welcome to episode number 401 of The EMBODIED Podcast. I’m your host, Elizabeth DiAlto, and today we have our first dude on the show in a couple of years. His name is Christopher Rivas and I remember when I first saw information about his book Brown Enough posted long before it was available for pre-order, which it is now. So, definitely check that out and I promise you by the end of this interview you’ll be way more interested in checking it out. But for me as a multiethnic, mixed race person who does fall into the brown category, who has spent a lot of time since 2020 especially, really getting into ancestral healing, which has led me to unpacking the multiple facets of my racial and ethnic identities, this body of work is really moving me right now. It’s a really giving language to things and connecting, even down to things like growing up in a borough of New York City to Latin parents and not speaking Spanish and feeling like you should, as well as all kinds of other things.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
So, I’m really excited to have Chris with us today. He is a multi-passionate, multi-talented, multi-hyphenate person. To list a few things that he does, he is a storyteller, an actor, an essayist, social commentator, disruptor, filmmaker, podcast host, speaker, Rothschild Social Impact fellow, and many more things. He’s the creator of the one man show, The Real James Bond Was Dominican and he uses storytelling to disrupt what is with the possibility of what can be. It’s not really about answers, it’s about asking bigger questions like the vital role stories play in our lives and work. And you’re going to see in this episode how much I enjoyed just letting him tell us stories. So, I hope you love it. This is episode number 401, which means you can find the show notes, which includes links to anything we mention here at untameyourself.com/401. And without further ado, let’s get into it.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Okay, so everybody listening, you’ve already heard the intro, you know I’m super hyped for this interview with Christopher Rivas. You’re also, by the way, the first dude I’ve had on the show in literally a couple-
Christopher Rivas:
Stop.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
… in years.
Christopher Rivas:
Really? Why?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah, I just haven’t felt like talking to y’all.
Christopher Rivas:
I get it, it actually makes sense.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
People listening, you’re probably like, “What the fuck? Do I hear a baritone in that voice?” The other cool thing that is unique here, my guess no, even though I’ve had my podcast for so long, I don’t really listen to podcasts, but I have just listened to … I am all caught up on your podcast and I love it so much. We will be talking about that. So, I’m having a little bit of the experience that other people have with me, which is like, “Oh my God, I’m actually … this is a real person. It’s not just a voice in my ear or in my car on Spotify.” So, welcome. Opening question for everyone in this season of the podcast is what is bringing you the most joy right now?
Christopher Rivas:
Nice question. My therapist asked me this, he did. I called him, I don’t have weekly therapy sessions, I have sessions usually when I’m in crisis, which I’m like, I don’t know if that’s the right …
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I was going to say, I’m pretty sure that’s how therapy’s supposed to work.
Christopher Rivas:
I’m pretty sure, if they’re more consistent then I don’t have to always build up a teapot and then call him when I’m boiling. But he said that, he said, “All right, so what’s … Slow down.” He said, “What’s good in your life right now?” And I’m going to give the same answers. I just got to spend some time with my family, so my family is a great thing in my life. I found a lot of peace and relaxation hanging out with them for five days. What’s good in my life is I have an incredible manager and friend, who’s just awesome. He believes in me more than I believe in myself sometimes, in this hard, being an artist life. I have a great partner and support system at home. And so, that’s my three things.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I love this, thank you for sharing. So you have many creative, amazing things going on right now. You have the Rubirosa podcast, you have your Brown Enough book, we’re going to talk about all these things. Are you also launching a podcast that goes with the book?
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, so Rubirosa will turn into … On the same feed, it will just transform into Brown Enough and it’ll be a weekly show where we … same concept as the book. We talk about brownness and brownness in different fields and we just put incredible brown people on blast, who are taking up space somewhere in between black and white.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I love this. And listen, during the pandemic in 2020 with all that, I’m going to be in full support of everyone. I grew up on Staten Island, so I know a lot of your stories about growing up in Queens, being in the melting pot, being with all the people. I didn’t go to nearly as many bar mitzvahs as you, but I get the culture. So, I’ve always had many black friends, had a lot of Black people in my life, my parents did. So, of course, I’m in it for Black liberation and I also, I’m always thinking about, okay, but where are the brown people? And then actually I heard about your book because I know the people at Rowhouse and stuff. So, when it first got announced a really long time ago, I was like, “Yes, someone is going to be talking about this.”
Elizabeth DiAlto:
So, for people listening, we do have a lot of white people that listen and it’s good. This would be a good conversation for you to listen, to get another lens into the non-white experience. Not that everything needs to be centered around whiteness, but you know what I mean. So, here’s where I want to start because this is just up for me right now. The podcast episode that I published two or three weeks ago was called My Sacred Slut Summer. I’m currently exploring non-monogamy, but dating has been a big part of my life. Something I’ve talked about a lot in the podcast and something I jokingly say all the time is I don’t date full whites. This was a part of your story. You talked about it in the podcast, it’s in the book. I also love Modern Love in the New York Times. So, I’m so curious even since you’ve written the book, so I know I’m talking a lot. Let me ask you the damn question, I’m just so excited. So, on this topic of not dating white people or the challenges of dating white people for brown folks, I would love for you to share with people who haven’t already read the book or heard your podcast, that experience, that story, what you wrote in Modern Love and then where you are with that now.
Christopher Rivas:
Full whites is a term I don’t think I’ve heard, which I like.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I made it up.
Christopher Rivas:
And I get this
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Actually, you know Trudi? It’s in her book. She coined it for me in her book.
Christopher Rivas:
I get it, I get it. So, for those of who don’t know, I … Where to begin? I dated a lot of white women in my life. We’ll begin there. I dated a lot of white women. When I found out that James Bond was based on a Dominican man, I felt … I was obsessed with this Porfirio Rubirosa man. Then I started to notice that he dated a lot of white women. Then I started to look around and I looked at movies where brown guys, Black guys were being saved by white women, where white women were saviors, where the hands that we held were more important than our own hands. It carried more value. I looked at beauty standards, I looked at whiteness in the world, not just women and not men, just whiteness, the thing we strive for, that in Korea you can get your skin whiten on the subway on your way to work, or in Ghana, or Thailand, or right here we can go to a Walgreens and get some skin whitening cream off the shelf.
Christopher Rivas:
I just started to think about whiteness and how it has been sold to me, whether I know it or not and how it is braided into me as the most beautiful thing. And so, when I walked into a space, I began to ask myself, why do I think she’s pretty and I’m less attracted to her? And so I let this … I’m big a believer in questions. I care less about answers and more about asking fat questions and maybe I can live myself into an answer.
Christopher Rivas:
Now, part of that is I write everything down and I talk about it publicly. So, I wrote this essay for Modern Love in New York Times. It went crazy. I became this face of woke racism. The original title was Please Don’t Hate Me For Dating White Women. The title got changed to, I Broke Up With Her Because She’s White, which is-
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Big difference.
Christopher Rivas:
Big difference, big difference. One is like, this is the thing I do, don’t judge me for it. The other is like, I did this thing. Now, I’m also going to say … it’s not wrong. I was with someone at the time and I had this epiphany. I was like, I need to figure this out before I can keep dating full whites, or any white. I need to know what I’m attracted to and why. I think in our whole life, it is not a bad thing to ask why we are drawn to something, why something turns us on, why something turns us off, why it pisses us off, why it puts a fire in us, why it makes us sweat, why we’re drawn to it. I think it is really important that we ask those questions of ourselves. And so, I wrote this essay and I did that exploration, which means for a while, I just did not date white women. I just didn’t. I needed to do that. I’m like, we all got to do what we’ve got to do.
Christopher Rivas:
Where am I now? I am at a place now where I know what it is that attracts me to someone. And I know my relationship with beauty standards, with desire, that if I were to be with a white woman, I’m okay with it, I’m okay with it. I think to me, the thing about whiteness was less about how someone looked or … To me it was about walking into a space where they just get it and I didn’t have to be a teacher. That to me is more important than any sort of physical appearance. It is more often true than not, that sometimes white people just … because the experience of being a body of culture is not braided into them, they just sometimes don’t get it and so I prefer to be around bodies that get it
Elizabeth DiAlto:
For people listening because it was actually a new term to me and I love it. Can you explain what body of culture means?
Christopher Rivas:
So, this is a term that I know from Resmaa Menakem, great writer. I don’t know if he’s the origin of it, but I know that I got it from him. And the way I receive it and like it, he might have a different sort of definition is that they’re not trying to take our color. And there’s also an argument for that with skin whitening. But that they’re trying to take our culture and they’re what assimilation is. You take our culture and you try and make us like you, you try and make us like whiteness. You try and flatten us, or quiet us, or dim us to fit your standards. And so, I really like the term body of culture versus body of color.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I appreciate that. I think why I resonated with it so much, so as a person … and the reason why it felt important to me to start distinguishing and use the term full white is because my mom is of mixed European descent. She’s Italian, German and Irish. My dad is Italian and Puerto Rican but … and I actually didn’t know this until just a year ago. His dad was also Italian and Puerto Rican but his dad wasn’t in his life. So, I have this Italian last name but my dad was raised … he’s Puerto Rican and so there’s like this split and reconciling the mixedness of it is a whole … I’ve been dying to get someone on the podcast to talk about that, being mixed race and multiethnic. But all your conversation about brownness this has been so meaningful to me because I started doing some ancestral healing work a couple years ago and then even through reading your book, So My Dad Married The White Woman.
Christopher Rivas:
I mean, that also happens within … I don’t know if I’ve said this out loud but I talk about it. My mother is a light-skinned Columbian woman that’s real. I’m just putting that out there. I don’t know that-
Elizabeth DiAlto:
You said that somewhere in the book or somewhere, I think you’ve used the term white passing.
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, absolutely. 100%.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Which I get that. I live in Miami now, so I’m tan all the time, my skin is … Actually back in my 20s one of my best friends was Filipino and his nickname for me was light skin. But, and you probably get this too, just being racially or ethnically ambiguous, most people don’t read me as white. I will say post 2020 though, more people do, which is fascinating to me. I’ve had more people think I was white just because my last name is Italian than any other moment in my life, where the number one question I’ve been asked is, “What are you?” Do you get that question a lot too?
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, I mean I get the … I feel like in LA, I get it less because I think people here are less into asking that question. I think they’ve picked up the narrative.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I think they know they just shouldn’t. I don’t think they don’t want to, I think they just know they shouldn’t.
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, I do travel a lot for work and so I do get the question a lot. I will say, this gives me hope. I hadn’t thought about it in a minute, but I get the question asked less than I once did, which gives me hope. Maybe change is happening, things are changing, people are learning and it is slow and it will continue to be slow. It’s like if you sit for 23 hours in a day and then you stretch for 60 seconds, yo, your hamstrings are still going to be tight. Colonialism and capitalism and racism is so braided into us that we’re just trying to stretch now. But our hamstrings are tight, our racist hamstrings have got a lot of unfolding to do.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
This is a great metaphor. So, assimilation, you talked a lot about this in the book and you talked a lot about your dad and I’m less interested in … Whenever I have people on the podcast who’ve written books, I’m like, “Just go read the damn book.” I don’t necessarily need you to tell us stuff that you already wrote in the book because it’s such an undertaking. But I’m more curious about what were the conversations with your dad about what you were going to share about him in your book? How did he feel about that? How did he receive … How was that for you guys?
Christopher Rivas:
Crazy, that’s a funny question. I don’t think I actually ever asked because a long time ago, when I started doing Moth-style storytelling and my life shifted towards this place where I told true personal stories for performance, he became a large part of my content. My father is a masterclass on a lot of things, how to move through the world, how to manifest, how to assimilate, how to pretend, how to keep your own, toxic masculinity, beautiful softness, he’s really this … Which I think a lot of humans are. If we really look at people and we see they’re doing their best, there’s genius in them.
Christopher Rivas:
My father really exemplified that for me and still does. Still does because he’s transforming actively, evolving. And so, early on, my pops just became this subject of my work and not in a way where I don’t think I’ve ever … I’ve made him bad. And that’s probably why we never had the conversation because he’s seen my work and he’s cried because he’s seen himself in it. He’s seen parts of himself he might not have been prepared to see, but they weren’t like, “This poop head, this shit, this motherfucker.” They were like, “This is who this man is, He’s fantastic, he’s doing his best and he’s a victim of this world and its curses.”
Christopher Rivas:
The funny joke is that my dad always told every woman I ever dated, “Be careful because Chris is always listening, always.” He was like, “You know he’s going to write that down.” So, I think he just got it. I think he just got that I was just keeping my heart open to … And it’s not just him, it’s everybody. I think something that I love about the type of art I make is I allow people to show me who they are and that … Me seeing their genius allows me to learn about this world. And maybe that’s selfish, I don’t know.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
This is beautiful. Well, and I did notice that, because the way you speak about him, the way you just framed this, this man did his best. He’s a wonderful man. He was also a victim of this and this. It just paints a very holistic picture without demonizing him or like you said, making him wrong. And as I’m listening to that … So, I do healing work and I talk a lot about family and stuff like that. And I do my best, especially on the podcast and stuff, to just say a member of my family, without necessarily throwing people under the bus because my family members are a little more sensitive to stuff like that. There’s also some things that are a little uglier that when I share them I’m like, “I don’t need to be airing out people’s bad and dysfunctional behavior like that.” Even though it’s very relevant to my own history and my own story.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
But I’m appreciating that. I feel like even hearing how you describe that and seeing how you did it in the book softened my heart a little bit around this piece of me that was like … There’s this quote, I think it’s by Anne Lamott that’s like, “Well, if people wanted you to write better about them, they should have behaved better.” But the thing is, not everyone is capable of behaving better at the moment in time that you encounter them or if it’s your family, whenever.
Christopher Rivas:
I have a good story about my pops, it’s pretty recent. A couple weeks ago he called me and he went on a deep dive. So, before I guess my, I don’t know, career or whatever, took off, or whatever you call that. I taught storytelling classes for years. I taught them weekly and I taught them for different organizations and communities and high schools. And so, I had this ongoing program with high school kids and we would do four weeks of storytelling work and then they would end with a performance. And this one high schooler, beautiful young woman named Molianelli, told this story about her name and how she asked everyone to call her Molly. And so, this is deep in YouTube somewhere because I would put them online. I got permission and my dad one night couldn’t sleep and he started going through my old videos of young adults I worked with, young kids.
Christopher Rivas:
And he called me and he was crying and he said, “I found this video and about this young girl and she changed her name to Molly, or she wanted people to call her Molly, until finally because she was embarrassed of Molianelli She asked her parents what it meant and it was indigenous name. It’s an indigenous name that means the miracle beneath your feet. That their life was hard, their family and they never thought they would have a child. But when Molianelli was born, they knew she was the miracle beneath them and she would constantly hold them up.
Christopher Rivas:
And so when she found this out, she made sure that everyone would call her Molianelli. And my dad legally changed his name from Guillermo to William. And this made him very sad when he heard this story because he changed his name the same reason she chose Molly. But she went back, but my pops never went back. So, he called me and he cried and he said, “What you’re doing for people is so amazing, giving them the space to share their story.”
Christopher Rivas:
So, my pops is aware of Molly, also has an intimate relationship with my work because I think my work has really healed him and allowed him to see himself. When we tell stories about people, if we should choose to do that and we do it with care and honesty, honesty and care, we can be a reflective mirror. We can really be a loving mirror for people. I think me and my father have both gotten reciprocal medicine from this relationship we have.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I love that. Many years ago … I had never looked up the meaning of the name Elizabeth. I let people call me Liz for most of my life. Then I looked it up and the meaning of it was God is satisfaction. I was like, “Oh yeah, you can all call me Elizabeth from now on.” I did a whole ceremony. It was around my 34th birthday, I think. I was like, “Hey everyone, Liz is dead. Elizabeth, here she is.” It was funny, I had to correct people for years because Liz DiAlto was like … They really went together. People liked saying the full name. I was like, “Sorry, we’re not doing it anymore.” So, that was a beautiful story. And also encouraging people, look up the meaning of your name because you don’t know.
Christopher Rivas:
I mean, yeah, they’re our names. I have so much stress if I have a child, what am I going to name it? I think about this all the time because it can be so powerful. And when you’re young, especially if it’s a difficult name and you want people to pronounce it and it’s like it’s a wound and a trauma and so, names are … it gets said all the damn time. So, hopefully they can be medicinal and remind you of who you are.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
And on the topic of brownness and I think about this a lot. People, like you said your dad, when they come to the US and they change their name so that people here can say it. Or I think of people who get made fun of because in their country of origin, their name was just a name but here it’s a word, whatever. The reason it pops into my mind is I had a girl many years ago, I used to run a Cutco, I don’t know if you know Cutco Knives, but I ran the district office in Washington DC when I graduated college.
Christopher Rivas:
Cutco Knives?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah.
Christopher Rivas:
What is that?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
They’re these really amazing knives. I could still sell the shit out of some Cutco because they really sell themselves. It’s a great company. A lot of people just look at it’s multilevel marketing because it’s direct sales. But I mean, it really is high quality product. And also working there, that training, I got more out of working for that company that set me up to be able to run my business and do other things in my life, which I was also a personal trainer at one point.
Christopher Rivas:
Yay.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
And then I did in my entire college career, where I majored in marketing. But anyway, a woman came in and applied for the job and her name was Taco. I remember thinking, “This girl must get so made fun of here,” because it’s a food and in her country, not a thing, you know?
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, that’s … Yes, absolutely.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
And we’re the worst and I just-
Christopher Rivas:
I know, and kids are the worst.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Kids are the worst.
Christopher Rivas:
That’s what it is. Yeah, they’re vicious.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah. All right, body of culture, assimilation. We’ve talked about dating white people. One of my favorite parts of your book, because I lived out in LA for a while. I lived in Malibu, I lived in Venice, I lived in Marina del Ray. When you were describing going to this dinner party with this …
Christopher Rivas:
Meditator? Meditation teacher, guru.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Meditator, famous yogi. I’m like, “I got to ask him,” and I wonder if you’ll tell me which one it was, offline. I won’t ask you that here. And I also will respect if you don’t want to tell me, but as you were describing the house, you really are a good storyteller. It makes sense to me that you taught that everyone listening had … especially long time listeners know, I’ve told so many stories about my experiences of living in California. I’m like, “I got to get my ass back to the East Coast at some point.” But please just tell us because it’s entertaining about frigging … the shower in the middle of the living room.
Christopher Rivas:
Yo, that was a crazy … I mean honestly, it’s shocking. It’s shocking. The bathroom was in the middle of the house. It was a like centerpiece, it was like an art piece and the shower, you could see the shower from the bottom and from the top. It was crazy. Did I also write that it was in a movie?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah, Point Break?
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, which I actually haven’t watched since being told that but I would like to. I don’t know if the shower’s in it, or the house is in it, or the exterior, you know?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Right, yeah.
Christopher Rivas:
A lot of things were in movies but it was just so obscene. It was so obscene and unnecessary. I’m not prudish or anything but I’m just like, “What? Why is my shower in the middle of my house?” What great purpose does this serve me to have a shower so close to where I eat? That was it. I’m in my glass shower and I could see the dining room table and I didn’t understand the art, or the purpose of what they were trying to do with that choice.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
All the levels of unnecessary and eccentricity for eccentricity’s sake, just to get attention, or have a conversation piece, I guess. I don’t know.
Christopher Rivas:
Maybe it’s something about we’re all just naked and free. Maybe it’s something like that, right? They felt like those people who were like, “My kid gets to pick his own name and he gets to wear clothes whenever he wants. If he doesn’t want to wear clothes, he doesn’t have to wear clothes.” They had that vibe.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Probably free range, I think that’s called … In Los Angeles, the only place I’ve ever encountered this, free range parenting.
Christopher Rivas:
Free range parenting? I have to look that up. I don’t know that one.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
My friend one time is sitting outside of Erewhon, and some kid who’s like four, whose parents are nowhere to be seen, comes up and sits by her, starts touching her food.
Christopher Rivas:
And she didn’t say anything?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
She’s like, “Where are your parents?”
Christopher Rivas:
Oh my gosh.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
He’s like, “I’m allowed to do whatever I want.”
Christopher Rivas:
That shit drives my parents insane.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I’m sure it would.
Christopher Rivas:
Insane.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
[inaudible 00:30:30] a lot of parents, that is not the fuck how to do it.
Christopher Rivas:
You’ve heard the podcast. My dad is like, “How’s your life?” And I’m like, “Good.” And he’s like, “Well, then I did a fine job. Discipline is okay. Discipline is just fine.”
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Good.
Christopher Rivas:
It’s okay to have restrictions. Yeah, that dinner was insane. That was just one of the most LA … I’ve had a couple LA moments.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
That was so LA, I was dying.
Christopher Rivas:
It was a very, very LA moment. And that woman still reaches out to me to this day to, “How are you,” or check in and …
Elizabeth DiAlto:
To make herself feel better about-
Christopher Rivas:
I guess, I never really … I don’t ignore her.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
That’s nice.
Christopher Rivas:
I don’t ignore her and I just say, “Hey.” I’m like, “I’m good. Things are good.” Yeah, I like to imagine that she remembers that day but I actually don’t know if she does, you know?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Right, who knows? And for again people listening, I’m intentionally not having him fill in this whole story because I really want you to just get the book and read the damn book and get all the details of the story in the book. So, another thing we have in common, which I’m wondering, are you fluent in Spanish yet?
Christopher Rivas:
Am I fluent yet? No. Am I better than when I wrote the book? Yes. Even when I started the podcast, yes. A big part of it is practice. I went and shot a short film in the DR. That felt really cool.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
That’s cool.
Christopher Rivas:
That felt really cool. I was nervous.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Was that the first time you went? Because I remember at some point you saying you hadn’t been, but I don’t know if you said you’d gone.
Christopher Rivas:
If you listen to the podcast episode that comes out tomorrow.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Oh yes. Those of you who are listening to this recording, tomorrow was a long time ago. So, it’s already up.
Christopher Rivas:
But yeah, it was my second. It was my second. And it’s amazing, after never having been, I got to go twice in a very short time for work. And that felt like a real blessing. And I went, and I went by myself to do this work and to be with a bunch of people who did not speak English very well. Many did, but the majority of it was in Spanish and I was nervous, I really was. So much of my relationship to speaking Spanish, as someone who is … what I believe the term is selective bilingual. I understand everything, I don’t have the synapses to put the tools together. So, much of it is related to pena and fear, and looking stupid. I would love to be able to … The fact of the matter is I’m just not … I would love to be able to articulate myself like this in Spanish and I cannot.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
This is my thing I, because I’ve been … Same and you’re the first person I’ve ever seen speak about exactly what I experienced, which is … and there’s a reason and I would love for you to share your reason. And for anyone listening who has a similar experience, there’s such an intense relationship to land and language for people who didn’t grow up in the place, who maybe are first, or second, or third generation, or whatever. And you said, I actually wrote this down, “Learning a language you feel like you should already know.” Growing up, my mom didn’t let my dad teach us Spanish because she didn’t want to be the only one in the house that couldn’t understand because her experience of being with his family when they would speak Spanish and she wouldn’t know, she didn’t go let me learn. And we’ve talked about this because I was mad at her about this for years and she was like, “I’m not good with languages.” And I’m like, “I can accept that. And also, you also didn’t really make any effort, at all.”
Elizabeth DiAlto:
We would joke, my mom would be like, “Oh it’s in the kitcheno.” That was our joke, my mom’s Spanish was just adding an O to regular English words. But that feeling that you describe, especially being people who live, some might argue, overly articulated lives, or perfectly articulated lives. Either way, language is such a big part of what we do, to not be able to communicate in another language, the way we communicate in this one, and how that feels. It’s so humbling.
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, humbling is a great word. It is so humbling and it gives me so much respect. So, there’s something about compassion. Compassion says if you could start to feel what someone else feels, empathy, that whole thing, you can empathize and see them in a different way. Y’all, try and learn any language and then think about all, all, all these people who came here and didn’t know the language and then learned it and survived and made a life and didn’t get a green … and paid the rent. Privileged, that is privilege, that is … Put yourself in someone else’s shoes. It’s hard to adapt to a new culture, number one. And then you got to learn their language?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Can we also talk about how English is a ridiculous language to learn?
Christopher Rivas:
My sister actually teaches English, the language, and yeah, she just said that. It’s hard for me to imagine but apparently it’s one of the hardest languages to learn outside of Mandarin.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Well, because when I was looking at … as I’m practicing more Spanish to speak and I’m like you, I never heard the term, selectively bilingual before. I can actually read almost perfectly in Spanish because I did take it in school. Being in Miami, it’s hard because there’s so many different dialects and that the speed at which people speak. And it’s funny because Puerto Ricans are some of the fastest speakers. I’m like, “I’m going to need everyone … ” I’m not like, not [foreign language 00:36:36] but it’s just funny to say [foreign language 00:36:38], even though that’s not the right word. But sometimes, it’s hard for me to understand when people are speaking. Anyway, but as I’m relearning, since I moved to Miami, I’m looking at how much easier Spanish … the conventions, the verb conjugations, there’s some tense stuff or whatever. But in English, there’s so many things that there are sets of rules for, the words are so random. There’s an account on Instagram, I think it’s called Language Nerds, that constantly point out these differences. You know this account I’m talking about?
Christopher Rivas:
I don’t but I want to look it up, yeah.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I’ll send it to you on Instagram.
Christopher Rivas:
Please.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Even like the they’re, there, their, that kind of stuff.
Christopher Rivas:
Oh yeah, that old thing, yes. I’ve also heard … my sister has great examples of just how ridiculous and obscene some of the choices we make in this language are. Yeah, it’s also a language as a wordsmith, I love and admire and I would love to be able to do this because Spanish has that same beauty. When I read Neruda then I read the translation and sometimes the translation works but sometimes it doesn’t. And that’s the kind of intimacy and relationship I would love with the Spanish language. And I’ll be honest, I think the next level for me is I really have to put myself into a place for a long period of time in order to do that work, get intimate in that way. Yeah, that’s my next stage.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
The immersive experience. Yeah, same and I look at … But even the way they form sentences in Spanish and the way they choose to put words together, as opposed … I find it to be a much more beautiful, just the structure of it is so … I mean they call it the romance languages. I don’t even remember why that is, but it actually feels a lot more romantic to me as a language, like artistic and beautiful.
Christopher Rivas:
That’s the rhythm. There’s a rhythm. English can be very, very flat, very lack of music and there is a music in Spanish, in Italian, in many languages. I really love languages that are actually sound-based over emotion-based. Meaning in the Middle East and South Asia, there’s languages that have intonations, same word, different intonations, different meaning. It’s sound-based, back of the throat versus front of the mouth, nasal versus chest. And that to me, is so incredible and beautiful because you’re literally putting emotion into the word itself.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
That is powerful. How has it been for you actually just the day it’s happening. So, we’re having this conversation, Hurricane Fiona passed through Puerto Rico a couple days ago. It just hit the DR, I’m curious for you, since having visited, do you feel a different connection to the place and the land than you did before you had been there? Is this affecting you more personally than it would have, or is that not a thing for you?
Christopher Rivas:
I feel a different connection, yes. Do I have a different relationship to the hurricane if I hadn’t been? No, because our issues with infrastructure, our issues with the climate and infrastructure, will it affect me? Either way, there’s a whole chapter in my book about climate. It’s a big part of my life.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I didn’t get to that part yet. So, feel free to say as much as you want.
Christopher Rivas:
It’s a big part of my life. I believe climate issues are just representative of human issues. How we love each other, how we care for each other, how we think about each other. If we can’t do it for the planet, we can’t do it for our neighbors. I do believe that. I believe that deep down in my heart. It takes a second of thinking about something and someone other than yourself. That’s what it takes. And so, I would have this relationship with the DR and Puerto Rico regardless if I … I mean I’ve never been to Puerto Rico and I’m furious at this idea of their horrendous electricity company that’s one company privatized, that constantly screws people and on a windy day that’s not a hurricane, they lose power. And just the crime of that and that power is literally, is something … I was driving home in LA yesterday and I passed by, there’s this … You can’t see, it’s in the cool arts district of downtown LA. You’re talking like you’ve got this fancy ass restaurants here, Climbing Wall Brewery over here and there’s this insane beautiful, it looks like a piece of art, power plant. And I’m like, “What a blessing. What a blessing.” We had this crazy heat wave eight to 10, 100 degree days in a row and none of the power grids blew out. What a blessing.
Christopher Rivas:
So, I’ve never been in Puerto Rico, but I understand this blessing of the place I live and how if you don’t think about the people because you’re so obsessed with money, it’s just a curse. I read this thing today, it said, “Sorry to ruin your day, but it’s not the planet that’s in retrograde that’s ruining your life. It’s capitalism.” I really, really loved that. This planet is suffering because of the same systems that are affecting this place we call the United States. There’s capitalism, there’s racism everywhere. There’s this dream sold to us and it’s a problem, yeah, I think there’s still hope. I don’t want to get too negative Nancy. I think things are changing. I don’t know if it’ll happen in my lifetime, but …
Elizabeth DiAlto:
That’s what I always say. It’s just not in my nature to be one of those people to be like, “We’re all fucked. 10 years from now. People should just stop having kids.” I can’t be that person. I also have a little four year old niece, so I’m like, “Listen, I don’t want my own kids but we got to get our shit together because this little [foreign language 00:43:28] needs to have a place to live and I love her.”
Christopher Rivas:
I mean, her place to live just might be a little hotter, that’s all.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Might be a wasteland.
Christopher Rivas:
It’s just going to be warmer. But everything is cyclical. There are seasons. There are seasons to everything. There are seasons, you’re in a season right now, what is it hot girl summer or …
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Sacred slut summer.
Christopher Rivas:
Sacred slut summer. Right, that’s a season that you get to be in as long as you need to be in it. Patience summer, good brother summer, great writer summer, artist summer, good lover summer, good friend summer. I believe in seasons and allowing seasons to exist in your life and then evolve as they will.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah, I love that. We need to talk more about Rubirosa because I loved this so much. So, give them a little origin story of how you discovered that James Bond’s … By the way, did you ever verify, I know there’s a lot of proof pointing towards it, but can you verifiably say James Bond was based on a Dominican man?
Christopher Rivas:
Can we verifiably say it? No, I mean because unless I chat with the dude, unless I chat with Ian Fleming.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
All evidence points towards these are the facts.
Christopher Rivas:
We share as much evidence as we found and there’s a good amount. The funny thing is I got a picture sent to me from someone who was listening to the podcast in Iceland and apparently there’s this Icelandic man, there’s art all over Iceland, is James Bond, Icelandic? There’s some dude and some story about this Icelandic dude that James Bond was based on. So who knows, right?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah.
Christopher Rivas:
We do our best. I’ll give some context. I discovered this man named Porfirio Rubirosa in college. Someone sent me a Vanity Fair article about him and my Earth was really shattered. I was the little kid running around in my house in my underwear, putting on a British accent, with every Nerf gun I had, pretending to be James Bond. Truly I loved the movies, I loved the idea of it. I literally told my parents when I was a little kid, “I want to be an assassin.” Which is a weird thing.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Wait, one of my favorite parts that you talked about, which I often reflect on these types of things from my childhood too. Anywhere from hiphop and R and B lyrics that I shouldn’t have been listening, to movies. You were like, “Y’all, I was like eight years old pretending to be this dude that was a straight up pimp.”
Christopher Rivas:
Legit. I was like, “I’m going to kill people and be the dopest dude out there and it’ll be fine.”
Elizabeth DiAlto:
This is my girlfriend, Pussy Galore.
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, so I grew out of that, sort of. I guess, I became an actor so I didn’t really grow out of it because I was like, “Oh, I could just play that, become that.” And so, this article gets sent to me about this man and my Earth is shattered. I become obsessed and I ask one question, “How would my life have been different if the character I loved most as a child looked like me? Looked like my pops, looked like my community and the people I loved? Had my hair, my nose, my skin.” And this was a real rabbit hole for me moment. I wrote this play called The Real James Bomb Was Dominican. Took it around the country, Stitcher found out about it. They turned it into this 10 part amazing docuseries. I really think it’s amazing, we put a lot of effort and tears into it.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Y’all, again, I cannot emphasize enough, I do not listen to shit like that and I loved it.
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, thank you, it was a lot. And we traveled [inaudible 00:47:19] in the last … spoiler but yeah. We did some incredible traveling and researching and journalism and met incredible people and so much cool stuff happened. And we tell this story about Rubirosa, the Dominican man that we really believe James Bond is based on. And simultaneously with that story, what I actually think makes it more interesting because yes, cool dude, super cool dude. What I think makes it pop more is what he taught me about being a brown man in America. What he made me ask about my own life, about my father, about dating white women, about Hollywood, about why I got a nose job when my manager told me to, about why I didn’t like my curls when I got out college, about skin, about race. This man was a warning of what not to become. And that’s the thing that I think makes the show really pop and sing. And it’s this beautiful piece we made. Yeah, Rubirosa.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
It’s so, the storytelling … and I was, I was so impressed with the research and the people you had, and also just to hear how many people … but more than anything, if anyone listening, not that you have to be Dominican, but just the history. I actually appreciated that so much. Back in May, I went … One of the islands in the archipelago, I don’t even know … Is that how you say that word?
Christopher Rivas:
I think archipelago?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I don’t know,
Christopher Rivas:
Maybe archipelago.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
There was a lot of words. I do this on the show all the time. I’m like, “I don’t know, y’all, I don’t think I’ve ever said that out loud before.”
Christopher Rivas:
I don’t know, archipelago, I don’t know.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Somebody let me know. But of Puerto Rico, one of them is an island called Vieques that I had never been to. So, I wanted to go to Vieques and the Airbnb where I stayed, there was one of those bookshelves where it’s like, take a book, leave a book. And there was a book on the shelf called Olga Dies Dreaming. Have you heard of this book?
Christopher Rivas:
Dies Dreaming? I have not, probably looked it up.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
So, my abuelita’s name is Olga and it’s about this Puerto Rican woman who grows up in Brooklyn, which that’s where my dad grew up. All these things. And I’m like, “Yoink, I’m definitely reading this one.” And there was all this history and even … So again, I was so relating as I’m listening to the podcast, as you’re asking these questions and asking your dad, “How am I in my 30s and I never knew this before?” Because that was me the whole time. Even at the end of 2020 when I started doing my ancestral healing and actually pulled out this notebook today, I called my abuelita and I was basically interviewing her. I’m like, “I need to know all this shit before you die.” I didn’t say it like that because you can’t say shit like that to people on that side of my family. But I was like, “I need to know everything because the details aren’t … ” and I took notes, I had my journal, I’m like, “All right, I have the facts or at least the facts as they’ve been presented to me.” Because that’s another thing with people in my family, the facts as they’ve been presented and we’ll never know. Because actually this town, Utuado, where currently that bridge that got washed away in Puerto Rico, that’s where my great-grandmother grew up.
Christopher Rivas:
Oh wow.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
And in some big flood, that was always the big joke. We never knew how old she was and she would never tell us. And her birth certificate got washed away in a flood, so we were literally never going to know.
Christopher Rivas:
You don’t have family there right now, do you?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah, they’re all there.
Christopher Rivas:
Are they okay? Have you chatted with them?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah, they’re okay. They’re all in and around San Juan. So, power’s out for everybody. But it’s like Hurricane Maria part two. They did this five years ago and they’ve done it other times but they’re not in the places. That’s just where my great-grandmother was from. But anyway, Olga Dies dreaming. I go on tangent sometimes, my brain works that way. If anyone is Dominican, I’m just going to highly encourage and invite you to listen to this Rubirosa podcast if you’re not super familiar with the history, because I enjoyed learning it, even though that’s not my heritage and it was just reminding me of how much I was learning when I was reading the book Olga Dies Dreaming and I was like, “Dude, we don’t … ” Our families, not that they are supposed to or should, but it’s like, shit this is my own culture. How do I not know?
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah, I think it’s really important to … Something that has transpired in the show, which has been super nice, is people outside of being Dominican … I didn’t make this show for Dominicans. Like the majority of my work, I didn’t even make it just for Latinos. I made it for brownness. I made it for culture. I made it so that we asked questions of our culture, and of our politics, and of our beliefs and of our parents and of our people and of our ancestors. I made it as an invitation to say, there is so much wisdom and hurt in you and it’s time we start making love to them a little bit and listening to them.
Christopher Rivas:
That is definitely the response I have gotten is so much, “I’m not Dominican but …, or my Mexican this, or as a Cambodian person I had the same feeling when I found out blah, blah, blah, blah.” It’s universal in that way. Even if you are a full white, American person, it is universal in that way, that it is good to challenge your heroes and it is good to ask questions of your life and the people in your life. There’s always more than we think there is.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Well, and listen, I always remind … I have white people in my audience. I’m like, “You all have ancestors too, find out … if you trace the back far enough, your people were indigenous somewhere, where is that place and what were your traditions? Find that shit out because it’s real healing.”
Christopher Rivas:
Yeah. What is ancestral, you said said ancestral healing a couple times. What is that for you? Or what was it? Or is it done? Is it ever done?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
It’s never done, but for me it was about … I worked with a woman who facilitates this and she also works with plants and not necessarily psychedelics. When people hear plant medicine, of course the first thing, especially if you’ve ever lived in Southern California-
Christopher Rivas:
Los Angeles, yeah
Elizabeth DiAlto:
… you’re going to thank ayahuasca, mushrooms, whatever. But no, even just herbs, she’s an herbalist. And it was cool because that was woven in with the ancestral healing because you actually look into what are the herbs of my heritage? So, I work a lot with rosemary for example because that’s also a common herb. And for me, part of this was really driven by having so many different lineages. There’s like two lineages of Italian in my family. Ones from Northern Italy, ones from Southern Italy, of the German, the Irish, the Puerto Rican. And then obviously like you now, similar in the DR. When you’re Puerto Rican it’s not just, “Oh, we’re Puerto Rican.” It’s, we got the Taino. We had the slave trade come through the island. There was Spanish. In your book you talk about not doing any DNA stuff. Have you done it since?
Christopher Rivas:
I have not. But you did it?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I did it. And that was another moment for me.
Christopher Rivas:
I mean, my mom and my sister have done it, I just haven’t done it.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I had a little shame about being like, “How did I not know I was all these things?” And what was fascinating though is places I was drawn to travel and spend a significant amount of time, Spain and Portugal, in the damn lineage. And it’s just so interesting. So, for me, ancestral healing was a way to connect more spiritually and energetically to the lineages because there’s all this information, we’ll never know. But that we could certainly access through meditation, through altars, through prayers, through communing with the ancestors, and listening and receiving information that living people in our family might not have but that is available to us. Some people might not believe in that, I’m putting that in air quotes for people listening. But that’s the experience for me.
Christopher Rivas:
I think for me, that has been about … Going to the DR was powerful but I really resonate with the Colombian in me. My mother’s Colombian. Going to Colombia was really revolutionary moment for me. I went by myself. It’s an amazing place and that’s okay. Something about the matriarch in me, the mama energy in me. There’s something about that place that really lit a fire in me. It showed me myself, it showed me my people, my culture. I think you can get that ancestral healing just from arriving, arriving in those places where you are from.
Christopher Rivas:
That’s something high on my list that I haven’t done yet. I got to make the time for it, is I want to go Rivas, Spain. There’s a place in Spain called Rivas. And it’s not a place that’s remarkable, it’s not Barcelona or Madrid, but I just want to go, that’s my name. I just want to be there, I want to be in that place. And I imagine that there is healing there, even if we don’t have to name it, you don’t have to name your healing but. But we change on a cellular level when we make room or we allow ourselves to be in places that know us, before we even knew ourselves.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
I love that. I have a friend Asha, who’s also mixed, who she grew up in Venezuela, but she’s also Indian. And one of the things she was saying … Because I was like, “How do you connect with all of it?” Because that’s what I was feeling like. I’m like, “I got to connect with all of it.” And she was like, “For most people, like you’re saying right here with your Colombian heritage, there’s probably going to be something that pulls you and calls to you more than the other things.” And for me, that’s been being Puerto Rican. In my 20s I started taking Zumba classes and then I got certified to teach. I was working at the New York Sports Club in Hoboken, New Jersey and one of the other trainers taught salsa lessons. I always wanted to learn how to dance. And now, dancing salsa is the greatest joy of my life. I go to festivals. I just got back from one in Sarasota.
Christopher Rivas:
Wow.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
The biggest one in the world is multi week, multi city festival and Croatia and I’m going to go to that next summer.
Christopher Rivas:
Multi city, multi week means what? Multiple cities in Croatia?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Three weeks, different cities, yeah.
Christopher Rivas:
Wow. And it’s the biggest one in the world.
Christopher Rivas:
What’s it called?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Again, there’s three different things. There’s not like one frigging … because there’s technically three different events in one. It’s like Si Sensual or something like that.
Christopher Rivas:
Amazing. Is it always Croatia or is it just this is where it’s going to be this time?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Always Croatia.
Christopher Rivas:
Whoa, that’s so weird. Why?
Elizabeth DiAlto:
So many cities in the world have their own salsa … I went to the opening night of the New York City Salsa Congress Labor Day weekend. Every year, Labor Day weekend, that’s the New York City salsa con.
Christopher Rivas:
Wow.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
There’s a couple that happen in LA every year. That’s the other amazing thing about our cultures is the shit spreads. You could experience it.
Christopher Rivas:
Salsa specifically, legit, salsa specifically is everywhere. I mean, in every city in the world, someone’s … they’re dancing it. And that to me, is incredible.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
This is one of my favorite things about it. I’ve rolled up in Toronto, obviously New York, multiple cities in California, Melbourne, Australia, I showed up to a … and you could just walk in by yourself and be part of the crowd.
Christopher Rivas:
So cool.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yeah. So anyway, another tangent. But I’m so curious the notes that we’ll get from people in terms of connecting to the parts. Were all so multidimensional, multi dynamic. There’s so many parts of our identity, our heritage, our culture. I was for many years, a person who felt like I had to honor everything equally, even though I wasn’t drawn to everything equally.
Christopher Rivas:
Seasons, right? Honor what you need to honor when you need to honor it. Also, I think multidimensionality is … Today in this world, we are tempted to define who we are. I blame a lot of that on social media. I am this, I do this. This is my bio.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
In a 140 characters. Figure out how to let us know what you do in 140 characters.
Christopher Rivas:
Who you are, really. And then we put the things in the boxes that show the image of who we are. I think it’s a real trap to ever think a box can contain you. I mean that on a census box. I mean that on an Instagram box. I mean it in a reel, I mean it in a story. To embrace multidimensionality is to say, “I am not one thing from one place and da, da, da, da.” I don’t have to just be happy. I don’t have to be this. I think Brown Enough for me, why I wrote the book, brown is far more … It’s less about color than it is about that middle space, that space of non-binary thinking and being, that transient space, that fluid space, that uncontainable space, that I don’t know, space. That brownness represented … If white and Black were these two opposite ends of you had to be this or you had to be this. What is it like to live in that middle space? To take up space in that middle space, to let that middle space move you? And that’s really why I wrote the book.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
And I love that you used one of my favorite terms, which is people of the global majority, to describe brown folks.
Christopher Rivas:
Oh yeah, there’s more brownness in this world than anything else. Legit, legit.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
So, I know you got to get out of here in a moment. Something I like to wrap up sometimes with new people who I don’t know super well yet, is there anything I didn’t ask you that you were really hoping that we would get to talk about? Or just that no one has asked you yet in these interviews that you’re like, “Damn, I can’t wait for someone to ask me this.”
Christopher Rivas:
No, I don’t know what no one has asked me yet, but you’ve already asked me things no one has asked me, so that’s cool.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
Yes.
Christopher Rivas:
I’m just going to embrace that People keep asking me things that no one has asked me, because that’s a great way to live. Do I have anything I need you to ask me? No, I’m grateful. There’s a nice level of mystery and depth in this, that was cool. Yeah, I’m grateful to be here. I’m grateful to meet your community in this way. I’ll see you soon.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
See you in Miami. Books & Books.
Christopher Rivas:
And that’s it. I’m just hyped. I’m proud of the art I’ve made and I want people to check it out.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
This is good stuff. I love that through your art, you are doing big, big, big healing work for a lot of people, myself included. So thank you for that. Everyone listening, we talked about a lot of things. We’ll make sure there’s links to all of it in the show notes. I hate wrapping up interviews because I always want to ask more things, but I got to control myself, so we can do another one, another time. Thank you so much for being here.
Christopher Rivas:
Thank you.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
All right everybody, thank you so, so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode with our guests, Christopher Rivas, as much as I enjoyed having it. You can find the show notes at untameyourself.com/401. And as a reminder, our show notes page are always going to have all the links to anything we mentioned throughout the course of the episode. If you are listening here in real time, I also want to invite you this Friday, October 7th to our full Moon Wild Soul Flow class. This is a sensual movement class that uses a really sultry and enlivening playlist to help you connect with the energy of the full moon in Aries, coming up this Friday. You can find information and register for the class at untameyourself.com/classes.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
And then coming up later this month on October 23rd, our monthly workshop is going to be about fierce love. How do you live in a world that constantly tries to get you to not be a loving person, with fierceness and passion and compassion all bound into one, that revolves around your own personal values and priorities? And it always, always, always, if we’re talking about it here at the School of Sacred Embodiment, also helps you contribute to collective healing, joy, and liberation. Details for this month’s workshop on October 23rd can be found at untameyourself.com/workshops.
Elizabeth DiAlto:
And last but not least, just to give you a little teaser of next week’s episode, we have one of my nearest and dearest, Trudi LeBron, back on the show to talk about her Anti-Racist Business book, her upcoming course, The Art And Science Of Coaching, and it is a phenomenal conversation. I always love having Trudi on the show. If you are not familiar with her, you definitely don’t want to miss this one. So, make sure that you tune back in next week wherever it is that you listen to the show. See you later.