Weeze Doran joins me on this episode to jam about our upcoming liberation program for men and the vision we have for it. We take a nuanced look at the patriarchy and how it harms everyone who lives within this social structure – cis hetero men included. 

Weeze and I don’t subscribe to the white American feminist ideology and lay out the reasons why in this conversation. We’re aiming to shift out of this ‘toxic masculinity’ language and instead hold space for men to explore the dimensions of masculinity and the depths of their internalized misogyny.
Join us as we riff on the inspiration behind this program and what you can expect from the curriculum. We also have an info session on June 20th if you want to learn more about the content, who we are, or ask any questions. You can sign up for that here!

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In episode 427 of the Embodied Podcast we discuss:

(3:49) A passage from a bell hooks book called The Will to Change that deeply resonates with us. 

(8:35) The biggest barriers for men experiencing love, intimacy, and connection

(13:33) Why so many men struggle with embodiment 

(18:56) Why we don’t consider ourselves feminists 

(36:59) What happens when men are taught to be providers and protectors above all else 

(40:04) Our take on The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida 

(48:41) What liberation means in the context of romantic relationships 

(59:57) An overview of the Living Legends program format and curriculum

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Connect with Weeze:

Work with us:

Special offer:

Stay in touch:

Quotes from this Week’s Episode of the Embodied Podcast: 

  • Patriarchy exists. Men harm women and gender nonconforming folks and trans folks in that dynamic. And men are simultaneously hurt by upholding patriarchy to the very cis heteronormative standards of masculinity that they feel like they constantly have to perform. Many things can be true at once. – Weeze
  • I don’t want to do to others what has been done to me. I don’t want to have more power than anyone else. I want us all to be in our power and free. – Elizabeth 
  • What liberation says is find a partner that complements and creates balance. All of us possess the masculine and feminine essence inside of us. And there are going to be some situations in which one of the partners is better suited to lean into their masculine and the other will lean into their feminine. – Weeze 
  • When I tell people I want a man, I just want you to be emotionally literate. I want you to have a relationship with your body and your spirit and your entire being. I want you to be totally fine and comfortable having really hard emotional conversations and being vulnerable. Let me tell you, vulnerability is the sexiest strength in a man. – Weeze
  • In order for men to realize the depth and multidimensionality of masculinity, they actually have to listen to women about how they have been harmed and how the masculinity that they’ve been socialized in has been harmful. – Elizabeth 
  • Men just don’t have access to their humanity. And unfortunately, right now, we’re living in a cultural temperature, like a pressure cooker, that is actually saying: Do better, but also shut the fuck up and figure it out on your own. – Weeze

How was this episode for you?

Was this episode helpful for you today? I’d love to know what quote or lesson touched your soul. Let me know in the comments below OR share the episode on Instagram, tag me your stories @elizabethdialto, or send me a DM!

About the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto

Since 2013 I’ve been developing a body of work that helps women embody self-love, healing, and wholeness. We do this by focusing on the four levels of consciousness – physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.

In practical terms, this looks like exploring tools and practices to help you tune into the deep wisdom of the body and the knowing of the heart, which I believe are gateways to our souls. Then we cultivate a new relationship with our minds that allows the mind to serve this wisdom and knowledge and soul connection, rather than override it, which is what many of us were taught.

If you’ve been doing self-help or spiritual development work for a while, these are the types of foundational things that often people overlook in pursuit of fancier concepts that often aren’t practical or sustainable. Here, we will focus on building these strong foundations so you can honestly and thoroughly embody self-love. If you’re feeling it, subscribe to the show, and leave us a review wherever you listen from. You can also keep up with show updates and community discussions on Instagram here.

Transcript for Episode 427 “For The Love of Men with Weeze Doran“:

Weeze Doran  00:00

Masculinity is not inherently toxic. The infrastructure and social reality of patriarchy and the weaponization of masculinity creates toxicity in the way that people engage. That is an entirely different thing, right. And when we say toxicity, like we throw that around, you know, now the same way you and I have had this conversation the same way people throw around triggered, and like trauma response and all the things, but things actually mean something. And when we’re talking about toxicity, what we’re referring to is a system of dominance that is working exactly as it is supposed to.

Elizabeth DiAlto  00:42

Hello, everybody, welcome to episode number 427 of the Embodied Podcast. I’m your host, Elizabeth DiAlto. And today we have returning guests, Louisa “Weeze” Doran with us. And Weeze and I are diving into something that we do not usually talk about on this show, because typically my audience is women. But we you and I are both extremely passionate about men and men’s work and healing for men. Because we are both all about liberation. And if we’re really going to talk about liberation, we got to talk about everybody’s liberation. And while we know some people really like to blame and shame men, for toxic masculinity, and patriarchy, those things are systems, those things are socialized into all of us, we are all harmed by those systems, including men. And if we’re really all going to get free, and if we’re really all going to get liberated together. Men also need room to look at these things and unpack these things, and see how they’ve internalized things like misogyny, and how they have been socialized to use women as resources. And to not speak about their feelings and in a lot of cases, not even feel like they’re allowed to have feelings. And so we’re talking about and we’re getting into all of that with a lot of love, a lot of grace, a lot of compassion, and a lot of invitation today, whether you’re a man or not listening to this episode to take in the perspectives, listening to what we’re saying here. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  02:09

And then obviously, if you are a man, and you are interested in working with us in the program that we’re running this summer, just for men, which is called Living Legends way of the Reverend man, you can check that out at untamed yourself.com forward slash links. It’s open for enrollment right now we start July 7. And we are so excited to be running this program, opening up this space and adding this layer to the healing and liberation work that we both offer into the world. So I hope you’ll give that a look. And if you’re not a man, and you’re listening to this episode, but you have men in your life who you think might benefit of the program, we would love for you to share with them. Alright everyone, let’s get into the show. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  02:51

What’s up everybody? Welcome to episode number 427 of the Embodied Podcast. This is our last official interview for who knows forever maybe or indefinitely a long time. But it’s also technically not an interview because me and we’re just going to jam here. And wheezes back welcome back. wheeze

Weeze Doran  03:09

Thank you. I’m extra honored to be back just for a quick because you’re not going to give yourself the flowers. Today we are recording on the eighth birthday of this podcast. We are I mean that’s not a little thing. So like, add the fanfare. Throw the rose in. Thank you. That’s a really big deal. So I just wanted to give you your flowers real quick, everybody if you’re listening, thanks. Give her her flowers too. Thank you somehow. You’re welcome. Okay, back to you.

Elizabeth DiAlto  03:38

And you know, for the ADHD crew to stick with something for eight years. It’s no big deal. That’s all I’m saying. our episode today is called for the love of men. And I wanted to kick it off with a passage from a bell hooks book called The will to change and I even love the tagline of the book Men masculinity and love. And so we just just gonna sit there and be gorgeous while I read this here for a second. Like many visionary radical feminists, I and by the way, anytime I say I hear this is Bell Hooks writing again just for reference. I challenged the misguided notion put forward by women who were simply fed up with male exploitation and oppression that men were the enemy. As early as 1984. I included a chapter with the title men comrades and struggle in my book feminist theory from margin to center, urging advocates of feminist politics to challenge any rhetoric which placed the sole blame for perpetuating patriarchy and male domination onto men. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  04:46

Separatist ideology encourages women to ignore the negative impact of sexism on male personhood. It stresses polarization between the sexes, and according to joy justice separatists believe that There are two basic perspectives on the issue of naming the victims of sexism. There’s the perspective that men oppress women. And there’s the perspective that people are people, and we’re all hurt by rigid sex roles. Both perspectives accurately describe our predicament. Men do oppress women, people are hurt by rigid sexual patterns. These two realities coexist. male oppression of women cannot be excused by the recognition that there are ways men are hurt by rigid sex roles. And feminist activists should acknowledge that hurt and work to change it, it exists. It does not erase or lessen male responsibility for supporting and perpetuating their power under patriarchy, to exploit and oppress women in a manner far more grievous than the serious psychological stress and emotional pain caused by male conformity to rigid sexual patterns. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  05:54

Throughout this essay, I stressed that feminist advocates collude in the pain of men, wounded by patriarchy, when they falsely represent men, as always an only powerful as always, and only gaining privileges from their blind obedience to patriarchy. I emphasize that patriarchal ideology brainwashes men to believe that their domination of women is beneficial, when it is not. I figured you might just want to go from there. Yeah,

Weeze Doran  06:24

I mean, I think if I can TLDR that, for folks who, you know, maybe you haven’t read the book, or that just felt overwhelming is effectively Bell Hooks is messaging and very much the same thing that we believe is that multiple things can be true at once, right? I feel like every time we have a conversation, personally on the air or whatever, like we’re always talking about these multiplicities right. And this is no different. Many things can be true at once. Patriarchy exists. Patriarchy definitely harms men harm women in that dynamic and you know, gender non conforming folks and trans folks who expand it to 2023 language and men are simultaneously hurt by their brainwashing into upholding patriarchy into the very gendered heteronormative sis hetero normative standards of masculinity that they feel like they constantly have to perform. All of those things can be true at once. And I want to add just for the groundwork of this episode, that patriarchy is a social structure it is built into then obviously, policy procedure, right. So our unspoken, unspoken spoken social contracts. 

Weeze Doran  07:40

Every single one of us is capable of reproducing patriarchy, obviously, men and folks socialized male are more inclined to because they, as she says blindly benefit from the privilege, but and also anyone regardless of gender 1,000% can reproduce and participate in patriarchy. And so really, because that’s the case, it’s like we’re all harmed. Yes, certain folks based on their identities are harmed disproportionately because of that, but nobody is benefiting from it. And so unfortunately, what we’ve done is we’ve created this very much us versus them gender, like reinforcing the gender binary, where like, you know, the All men are trash, big quotations, their narrative, without actually acknowledging the ways in which like the dumpster fire that is patriarchy, specifically, like in Western societies, you know, like, we’ll keep it kind of specific for our conversation, like they’re in the dumpster right alongside us.

Elizabeth DiAlto  08:35

1,000%. And in all of my dating experiences over the years, which have been deep and wide and vast, no sexual puns, or innuendos intended, but I have to acknowledge it, I really see one of the biggest barriers for men having love and intimacy and connection. And we’ll talk about like the uprising and loneliness and depression and suicide rates in men a little bit later in the episode, but because they don’t feel like and they have no context and no training and socialization for expressing their feelings. So first, not even for expressing we have to first go back for being allowed to have them Yeah, beyond and Bell Hooks talks about this, but I’ve also I witnessed this long before I read this in the book, anger is acceptable, widely and largely acceptable for men. aggression and anger, but sadness, anything that implies any kind of weakness, right like I wonder how many people listening to this if this is getting into the ears of men heard big boys don’t cry when they were little by little, you know, like on a playground or like you fell on Saturday and you were still a baby like a toddler. And someone was telling you don’t do that. That’s not fair. But girls can cry like, right that even just that alone. And again, people socialized To not have or express feelings beyond anger or aggression might be like, Well, boy, should it be out you’re crying. But that in and of itself is a big part of the problem.

Weeze Doran  10:10

Yeah, I mean, we we have literally from inception, right like from the literal birth of small baby humans created very genderized, oppressive, emotionally oppressive norms that we reinforce, like, in all ways, shapes and forms. And it’s not even just the like, crying, right? It’s like, any emotion that is not anger or aggression is somehow vilified. And anything that is, quote, unquote, hyper masculinity is celebrated. So even like, the opposite side of it is when you’re telling, like kindergarten boys, who are running around with their teachers, or maybe pulling on her hair, or whatever, like, Oh, he’s got a little girlfriend, he’s got a crush, right? Or like another little kindergarten girl like we hyper sexualized them even young, right? So it’s like, it’s both spectrums. It’s every single thing from like, not only are you not allowed to have emotions, and we’re going to vilify you and shame you and belittle you, and minimize your humanity, right, attach so many other kinds of negative attributes that relate to an expression of emotion of genuine humanity and emotion on one side, and then we’re going to celebrate you for all of the things that seem like or look like virility and like ego. Yeah. And that’s all we’re going to give you. Yeah, that’s it, you have two options.

Elizabeth DiAlto  11:40

It’s so limiting. And there’s also so many ways in which men are infantilized through this. And God, it’s like the subtle programming and socialization that men are babies. And you know, what makes me think about this, so many shows that were like playing in the background of my childhood growing up, the one that comes to the top of mine is Everybody Loves Raymond, were like, the theme of that show is all these men are idiots. Yeah, like incapable idiots, what would they be doing without the women around here. And that’s like a popular trope in a lot of like, TV sitcoms, and stuff like that. And then also, you know, what I was, I was thinking about this for another reason yesterday. So it’s top of minds. I think about like dress codes in high schools, which I’m sure have like progressed on a level, but not entirely. But I remember there being rules about girls shorts couldn’t be above a certain length, don’t let your thumb show the tanks, top straps have straps, yes. And not only does that put the responsibility onto women, for men’s responses to them. But what that also says to men, is your urges are uncontrollable, we don’t expect you to control them, or even give you the dignity of giving you a chance to try. It’s super fucked up, we’re

Weeze Doran  13:02

essentially saying you are an emotionally underdeveloped remedial creature, who is only capable of aggression or hypersexuality. And anything outside of that, because you are either an infant or just simply incapable, we’re going to continue to effectively allow,

Elizabeth DiAlto  13:26

yeah, and then when that is essentially all you’re allowed to be, of course, that’s what so many people become,

Weeze Doran  13:33

that’s what you become exactly. And then it’s no surprise then that you have men in relationship to everybody else, strangers, other friends, regardless of gender, but specifically other male friends, parents, aunts, whatever, where there’s just this fundamental level of disconnect. Because now what you have effectively done is created a human person that can’t trust their own instincts that is so disconnected from their own body, like the intellect in their body, like embodiment is just, and obviously that’s your jam. So like, I’m gonna throw that back to you in a second, but like, they’re completely disembodied. And they are hyper aware of the ways in which their own humanity, like the full expression of their humanity will ultimately only lead to shame, lack of success being guilted being whatever, insert negative connotation here.

Elizabeth DiAlto  14:29

Yeah, there’s a comedian Bill Barr, I don’t remember which stand up special it was. But one of my favorite things about comedians is whether they mean to or not, how sometimes their commentary is actually really illuminating about social constructs and the downfall of current society. And he had this whole thing about how men needing anything is perceived as gay, right? Even that, like we can get back to even that as a, that being that Big you know, like, it’s not what kids are coming up with now, but certainly when we were I remember that being a thing. And he’s like, even you go out, he’s like, it’s raining. I’m not gonna do a bill burr impression, but he’s like a Boston Irish guys like you go out, it’s raining, you have an umbrella. And your friends are like, What are you up and he uses like the F word. You know? Like, he’s just like, we can’t meet anything without people being like, What the fuck is wrong with you be a man, you know?

Weeze Doran  15:24

Yeah. And like that is literally it. Like, we could be like, what is actually wrong with society? That right there, if you need basics, the basics for humanity, like for your humaneness to be considered, protected and honored. Somehow you’re not masculine, you’re not a man.

Elizabeth DiAlto  15:45

And there’s a big distinction I love that is important, because there’s so much the term toxic masculinity gets thrown around now, and one of the reasons we’re excited to have this conversation is because people start to just zone out because they get so tired of the terms. Yeah, and one of the reasons why we started the conversation also, and we’ll get more into this, about like, not particularly resonating with a lot of feminist thought, is because a lot of that is based in like man hating blaming, shaming and lands people in a place where no one’s open to hearing. Yeah, because they’re tuning it out, because they’re like, oh, this again, you know, like, great. I hear the word toxic masculinity. I’m like, What are you going to blame me for now? Right, and so, but again, just like the system of patriarchy, the socialization of toxic masculinity, that’s not even as we’re gonna say, like a broken record throughout this episode. It’s not just something that is affecting men. And it’s not just a male problem, right. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  16:49

And it’s also not just a straight hetero, male problem, right. Something I were also talking about recently is sis men, that is a big thing for them, regardless of any kind of sexual identity orientation. I want to come back to the embodiment thing, I want to close that loop and then go to the feminism thing. Yeah, I did someone one of the other reasons I have a little bit of unique context on this and passionate about it is because many years ago, I dated someone who was a men’s coach. And so through him and a lot of his friends, colleagues, peers, many of whom we’d like host in our home and stuff. I just got to hear men talk a lot about men’s work. And one of the big things that I walked away from that experience with is just the absolute gap in connection between head and caulk, right? It’s like, I’m connected to the head for sure. When I’m turned on, I’m connected to the COC. And in fact, that might take over everything. And I’m literally distracted now. But then everything going on between the two. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  17:58

What even is that? So as we’ve seen with the burgeoning of men’s work, you and I have talked about things like mankind, project, sacred sons, stuff like that. There’s a big movement to connect men to their hearts, but that still not integrating all the things and spaces and stuff in between. So there’s still a lot missing. And we’ll get back into that later. But to speak to the embodied piece, if men aren’t working on their emotional literacy, knowing what they even feel when they feel it, their emotional intelligence, what to do with their feelings, right? What to make of them and then their emotional maturity, how do they respond? When they’re having emotional experiences? We’re just going to continue seeing the perpetuation of the socialization, and all the issues. We’re all like, we’re all kind of over it in our own ways, for our own reasons. Exhausting.

Weeze Doran  18:56

Yeah, I mean, and this actually is like a beautiful segue into like, the whole feminist theory, conversation that we want to have. Because, like you say, We’re exhausted when I hear the phrase toxic masculinity. I stopped listening. Because what you’ve now signaled to me is that you don’t understand the nuance, yep. required to actually have this conversation because masculinity is not inherently toxic. The infrastructure and social reality of patriarchy and the weaponization of masculinity creates toxicity in the way that people engage. That is an entirely different thing. Right? And when we say toxicity, like we throw that around, you know, now the same way you and I have had this conversation the same way people throw around triggered and like trauma response and all the things but things actually mean something. And when we’re talking about toxicity, what we’re referring to is a system of dominance that is working exactly as it is supposed to. Right. Patriarchy was literally created. 

Weeze Doran  19:59

Did and invented to ensure that a certain population in this case, sis men maintain dominance in all of the ways across anyone who was not a sis man. And when we’re talking about interacting with other humans, we’re talking about emotional toxicity, which is emotional dominance. And because rage and anger is the only way that we’ve allowed men or taught men that they can express anything, grief, joy, like any of you ever, wait, let’s take a left turn real quick. Why on earth do we see every time a sports team wins a championship? The male population in that city rioting, live in cars over lighting shit on fire, smashing shit on their heads, that is all very aggro and full of rage. Because they’re and they’re succeeding. They’re happy. But again, the only expression of emotion we have allowed that is anger and rage. So then yes, of course, in dynamics with other humans, any humans, any emotion they’re having, there’s going to be an element of that rage and that power dynamic. And that power infrastructure, which, as women, that should is scary, that shit is absolutely terrifying.

Elizabeth DiAlto  21:14

Do you remember it went super viral? So I’d be shocked if you didn’t see it. And it was during early pandemic, it might have been 2020, there was a tweet that was like, hey, women, tell us what you would do. If men weren’t allowed out of the house after 10pm. I remember this. And the response in men was like, holy shit. I never even think about that stuff. And just by nature of being a man, women feel unsafe around me, regardless of the kind of man I actually am. And that barrier to connection, like that already puts you, like you are pushing a boulder up a hill to have to prove to a woman that you might be safe to be around. Because we are as a result of this like interlocking socialization, right, that is constantly flowing both ways. We are socialized that they are not safe. And then I’ve had experiences to reinforce the socialization, that we’re not necessarily out here trying to like, give people the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, literally for fear of our lives. Yeah. When sexual safety.

Weeze Doran  22:33

Yeah, and then the, like deeper level, which I know I have experienced, and it just brings this like deep disappointment, like the deepest level of it is then even when you are in relation, platonic, romantic, whatever, with sis men that you have up to a certain point felt safe with, when they do something that does make you feel unsafe in any kind of way. And then you want to address it with them. Like we’re gonna say this a million times right call back to what is the one emotion that they expressed? Because their reaction will typically be rooted in a defensiveness, a protective mechanism that comes out as any like different varying levels of denial or aggression. It only further than reinforces the narrative where like, I thought you were safe, I thought we had gotten to a certain point, you’ve done something that makes me feel unsafe, I feel like we are safe enough. We built enough vulnerability and intimacy here to where I can communicate that to you. And then when I effectively take the risk on my safety, to express that to you and try to have a restorative or reparative or clarifying conversation, you want fortunately proof society, right? And that causes me to withdraw.

Elizabeth DiAlto  23:43

Yeah, and this is just gonna talk about this later, but it’s perfect right now. So let’s talk about it. Now. One of the things again, I mentioned I’ve done extensive dating, I’m like a friend of mine actually calls me a man for apologist because I’m a person just for context for anyone who might be new to me. I’m child free by choice. I love not having kids. I love being an auntie. I also am relationship free by choice. I call it being delightfully without consort, you know, I go through phases. You know, I’m somewhere on the spectrum. I’m like, monogamish, like, I would maybe be open to a monogamous relationship was like extraordinary. But if not, like I’m perfectly content sometimes to have like, lovers or constellation of companions, or whatever. I’m also perfectly fine not having any of it. So I’ve spent a lot of time on dating apps not just to meet people, but like, studying because it’s so fascinating to me. And the volume of men whose profiles say something like no drama, or drama free and listen back in like 2018 I was doing stand up comedy just for fun. And I had a whole joke about this, about how I wanted to just like match with these men and then just send them one message and be like, the common denominator is you bro. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  24:52

Right because what a lot of men don’t realize to go to the example you just gave is because they aren’t socialized are encouraged to express a fuller range of emotion, that if a woman actually is coming to you with something that is an indicator of trust, and safety. So that defensive response is actually it’s this is very similar to the conversation around boundaries, where we say, if I’m even bothering to set a boundary with you, it’s because I’m actually trying to keep you around. I’m trying to create a basis for relating in a healthy way. So if a woman comes to you to address something, she’s literally trying to keep you around. Right? She’s trying to find like, connection, and intimacy. And again, not sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, psychological safety. And it’s not a test, right? Because there’s a lot of a lot of men out there. And this gets perpetuated in some schools of thought around dating that we need to test them. It’s like, it’s not a test, like I just actually desire closeness. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  26:02

Right? So right, any man listening who’s had that experience? I wonder if you reflect on how a woman came to you. And you can see that through the lens of that she was actually desiring closeness, not trying to like, tear you apart, emasculate you or like any of the other ways that often gets contextualized, which again, is so infantilizing to men than to call basic conversations about emotions, emasculating assuming and implying and implicating that men can’t handle it. That sucks.

Weeze Doran  26:44

Yeah, the thing that I always like, ask a lot of the men that I’m close to, because I’m very fortunate to be surrounded by both male family members and male friends that we’ve truly been plugged in, which is like mind blowing to every other human for all of the reasons that we’ve already talked about, right? Like, I’m surrounded by amazing men with beautiful souls. And we have been some of my closest dearest deepest friends, right? And because I want to keep them around, I’ve had the level of patience where, you know, sometimes we choose to take on the emotional labor. But one of the things that I started asking them as I got older and started to really shift out of all men are the problem old school kind of like, bullshit feminine. Well, I call it bullshit. 

Weeze Doran  27:34

We’ll get into it more in a second what I consider bullshit feminist theory, right into really where I stand on where we stand now is starting to ask them like, what if, when I brought you something like this, and I, you recognize it as I’m choosing vulnerability, because I trust you. And you use it as a permission slip, to take the risk on being vulnerable with me too. And every time that I’ve been able to come with that energy, and like, obviously, we’ve already had this conversation in our relationships, like the second that I start to kind of see it going left, I’m like, hey, what’s happening here? Like, are you choosing vulnerability? Like, are you staying rooted in this energy with me? Right, and like, that brings them back. And so like, I really just named that more so for our, you know, non sis men listeners that are listening to this episode, that maybe are like rolling their eyes left and right, right. It’s like the duality of naming like, yeah, you know what, there is going to be a certain burden of emotional labor. 

Weeze Doran  28:35

Yeah, on you. If you want to be in relationships with anybody who, for whatever reason, does not have access to their full emotional range and the skill set to be able to write have conversations within that full emotional range. There’s always going to be emotional labor if you want to maintain connection and intimacy with those people. But specifically, if what if we operated from the perspective that if men knew better they would do better as Dr. Angela Washington said about marriage but just generally right if people know better, they would do better. And so with men if they knew better, they would do better and they don’t know better because by design they have explicitly one been socialized and taught not to, and then to all of the things that could be accessible to them are considered go back to Bill burrs joke, right? Like emasculating less manly, so on and so forth. So then, society has also very intentionally cut off all roads that lead to emotional evolution and full access to their you know, their own humanity. So it’s like if we actually started to engage from that perspective, how different could things be and that’s fundamentally why like, when we were talking about before we started recording, I don’t call myself a feminist. 

Weeze Doran  29:49

You don’t call yourself a feminist like, I think the concept of feminism and also specifically Western American feminism is complete fucking malarkey. So beyond the fact that, first of all, it reinforces the gender binary and the performance of the gender binary by, like, just creating this narrative that instead of celebrating the differences in everything, our bodies, the way we choose to express them, all of the things, it really positions, and specifically sis men and sis women. So first of all, it’s exclusionary, in that sense, because it doesn’t create any other space for trans and non binary folks at all, or different varying forms of gender expression. But that aside, it creates it inherently creates opposition, it inherently creates divide. And the one thing that anyone who practices any sort of liberation will tell you is that we need connection, we need community, we need to operate as a collective. And in that collective, we need to be able to create spaces for everyone’s full humanity to be seen honored and valued, point blank period. That’s the foundation of liberation. 

Weeze Doran  31:05

So when you introduce Western American feminism that inherently says not only are we going to completely segregate ourselves, we’re going to as sis women try to defeat the empire that is masculinity and patriarchy. Right. And as Audrey Lorde says, You can’t dismantle the Masters tools with a man there are Masters House with the Masters tools, effectively, in this case, the tool is patriarchy. It effectively seeks to instead of creating again, liberatory spaces where everyone is seen, heard, valued and has the full ability to express themselves sovereignly it says, We want a piece of that pie, we would simply like to increase our proximity to sis hat and specifically sis hat white masculinity. Instead of saying, let’s eradicate the whole thing. And also, hey, those of you that are at the epicenter of privilege, why don’t we actually invite you over into this laboratory space and conversation, let’s provide you with a little bit of collective care, community care and healing so that you can get what you need, so that you can then see us as fully formed humans that are in need of your aid and the privilege that you have and all those things to eradicate it as a whole so that we can all be whole sovereign humans and have intimacy and connection and value each other. And that’s not what white western feminism specifically but Western feminism does at all. It does the exact opposite. It touts the exact opposite, right? Like, I’m sorry, what did burning bras accomplish?

Elizabeth DiAlto  32:33

Were pussy hats

Weeze Doran  32:35

are oh my god, don’t get me started on the fucking pussy hats like, what truly truly what did your native pussycat accomplish? Know what it did? It told men to go fuck themselves.

Elizabeth DiAlto  32:46

Which doesn’t help like, exactly you’re saying. And I forget who originally said it. Maybe it was an Angela Davis. Our liberation is all bound up together. And that’s like the TLDR on everything that you just said. Yeah, that’s

Weeze Doran  32:58

literally a Watson. Lilia, well, thank

Elizabeth DiAlto  33:00

you. Um, the thing that I really want to come back to that you said here and tug the thread a little bit more is the type of feminism that is so counter to liberation, is that just a power grab for women. And like you were saying, and alluding to it’s a power grab for sis women, right, it’s also not inclusive, it’s not liberatory, it’s going I want that instead. It’s not I want that for every buddy. And I remember hearing a Loke speak on a podcast and they described privilege and one of the best ways I’ve ever heard which was like, Privilege is wanting to do to other people what they’ve done to you. And that’s what a lot of this kind of feminism that we’re not fans of and why I’m not I know you’re not interested in being associated with it, because I don’t want to do want to others what has been done to me, I don’t want to have more power than anyone else. I want us all to like be in or powered and free and not like and for real living our best lives, right? Where we don’t have to fucking work all the goddamn time. Right? 

Elizabeth DiAlto  34:10

Where we can actually take breaks where we can be creative, really pursue things. And to come back to something else you were saying earlier about the aggression and men and being able to express that this is not just about sis straight men, because some of the biggest aggression comes from SIS gay men. Because it especially at other points in history, but even still now, it has been so unsafe to be a gay man, that to perform straightness, they have performed acts of violence, aggression, harm, to like, throw them anyone off the scent of their homosexuality. And what that does to a person to have to fracture yourself like that, to act in a way that isn’t in your nature, but that you feel like you have to see could maybe get to be yourself behind closed doors like that shit. Well, nauseating, deeply,

Weeze Doran  35:06

deeply harmful. You know the other thing too, that I think about a lot with regards to patriarchy and feminism is the way in which the popular Western feminist movement, then weaponizes itself against other women, and specifically sis women, when we have the audacity to believe what Bell Hooks teaches, or say any of the things that we’re saying, I have had so many women, specifically sis women, and most specifically sis white women. Try to like come for me. Because I say things like, I love it when a man puts me on the inside of the street when we’re walking down the street. Right? I noticed shirt like that. Yeah, I love it. And I love it. Because what it signals to me is not I’m not I don’t love it, because I’m like, Oh, my God, he’s such a man and live like as right like, exactly. And I need to, I’ve been back since I was 16. I got hands. I don’t like I can. I’m good. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it signals to me that he has an awareness of what the world is like, yeah. And he has awareness of his positionality in society and my positionality in society. And he’s using his positionality, even in small ways to cloak me. Mm hmm. Right? That to me, is sexy a shit. Hell, right. But again, because if you create a lens of engagement, gendered engagement, specifically, that can only see a man as oppressive, dominant, aggressive, exploitive, just the enemy, then of course, anytime you hear somebody say anything, you’re immediately going to come for their neck, because you actually haven’t even done the work in you to be able to create space for that man to be more than whatever society has prescribed for him.

Elizabeth DiAlto  36:59

So this is a great segue into something real excited to talk about, which is a lot of these movements, and a lot of these bodies of work around dating, and love and intimacy, and polarity and masculinity and femininity, and specifically with the words like sacred or divine in front of it create these very limited continual binaries, but also scopes of what defines them. And one of the big ones around masculinity is being a provider and a protector. And Bell Hooks talks about that in the world of change as well, because she talks about how also from a very young age, not only are men socialized around, only being able to express or have a very limited range of emotion, but what they are valued for is what they could do, what they could do, what they could produce, what they could provide. And when we look at the rise in cost of living costs of doing business and stuff like that, capitalism, which is a whole nother context and conversation, and how hard a lot of men work to be that to be a provider to be a protector, because they think that’s where their value is, or the shame that some men carry, who were just not built necessarily, to be providers, especially in the context of financial provider, like and I grew up in a household where my mom was the breadwinner, my dad was not, but the things my dad did in the home. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  38:33

And even as my grandparents age, the way my dad was there, to take them to doctor’s appointments and do things and like, you know, my grandpa at the point at which he was bedridden, and my dad was the one like moving them around and tending to his bed sores, and that beautiful bonds that they were able to have at that point in life, you know, and yet, some family friends or relatives, even the family accountant, at one point, making comments about how my dad lives the life because my mom, he’s like living off my mom. And it’s like, well, if I have two aunts that were successful in careers as one was a corporate lawyer, one was an occupational therapist, and once they had kids, they became stay at home moms. No one says that shit to my aunt.

Weeze Doran  39:22

I was just gonna say it’s, it’s because of the entire narrative around the invisible labor force. Right? If you provide a service, so to speak, where you play a role in society and in community that we can’t attach $1 amount to which historically in society has been reserved for women. We don’t value it. And when it’s women, we don’t say anything because that is what is expected of you. When it’s men, it’s Oh, man, like you’re living the life you’re kicking up your feet because I expected you to have to work all the time. But you know, you don’t. And so what a luxury It is also if you believe that you’ve never been a caretaker for anyone,

Elizabeth DiAlto  40:04

right? Exhausting. There’s books out there, like one of the most famous ones is called Way of the Superior Man. Listen, can we first discuss why the word superior? Is? Garbage? Something anyone should be striving for?

Weeze Doran  40:25

Well, I mean, other than the fact that the literal definition of superior is higher in rank, status or quality. I mean, the word literally gets to the heart of patriarchy, it literally gets to the reality that we live in a society that is predicated on a belief that sis men are superior to everyone else, that there isn’t the meeting. Exactly. There is in fact, a power dynamic and a structure of dominance. Because men are somehow just naturally inclined to hold that position. You know,

Elizabeth DiAlto  41:07

what I thought about a lot in the Trump years? Or is how, you know, people will talk about how women are too emotional, to take leadership roles. And it’s like, look at this one. Look at this guy, having temper tantrums on Twitter, over the tiniest little things like meltdowns, right, so let’s go back to like, draw a connection here connected dot. It’s like cool, let’s socialize men to be largely emotionally illiterate, and underdeveloped. But then let’s act like that means that they’re more emotionally capable. They just don’t actually have the capacity capacity to be in a role. And they’re acting out from like, these very immature places. But with dominance and power, like, a lot of the problems we see ourselves having right now, are all because of this. And you know, what just popped into my mind the image of the interviews, and I’m gonna forget everyone’s name. What was the guy’s name Brett that got elected to Supreme Court?

Weeze Doran  42:15

Cavanaugh, Cavanaugh?

Elizabeth DiAlto  42:17

And then what was the name of

Weeze Doran  42:19

the black woman? Catan G. Brown Jackson. Thank you. Yeah,

Elizabeth DiAlto  42:23

well, I just think about the image of him like losing his mind during his trial, and her having to be so composed. While people were just asking her the most ridiculous shit that no one would ever ask a man. And that like that range, what’s acceptable to him to behave like a toddler and an adult’s body and how she had to hold in which not even just being a woman, but being a black woman on top of it, like, and again, that’s no disrespect to anybody. I’m trashed with no literally

Weeze Doran  42:56

yet. Same sees. But you know what, I do want to come back, I wanted to put one Asterix On The Way of the Superior Man, because there are going to be folks listening that are like, what I thought that book was so great, or like, we talk about it all the time. And I want to be clear, like, before I knew better before I had really started my own work around decolonizing my relationship to gender and gender performance and all of those things. I thought that book was great, too. Bam, right, a B, we also have to recognize, you know, the way in which Nipsey Hussle popularized that book most because that book was written in 97, right? It’s an old ass book. But it was brought into popular culture in like a much different way. And as we know, whatever we have anyone with celebrity status, especially somebody who was so deeply revered and respected like Nipsey, hussle was people’s ability to think critically and and actually analyze goes out the window a little bit, because they just inherently trust that you know, what this person has said, so I just want to put that out there. If you haven’t gotten to a place in your journey yet, where you can be critical of this particular narrative in this book, that’s totally okay. 

Weeze Doran  44:04

We were all there once not we didn’t come out the womb just like knowing this stuff. Right. But fundamentally, the reason I have an issue with that book is that there are and this is the like bait and switch. There are some elements of it. That I totally agree with. Sure. However, by and large, the narrative effectively simply reinforces like subservience oppression, or existing power dynamics. All it does is say, Hey, man, I mean, this is obviously a very remedial translation. Y’all liked it to be clear, but it’s like, Hey, dudes, you know, there’s more to you, but also, keep walking the path that you’ve that you’ve walked, because it’s your birthright.

Elizabeth DiAlto  44:46

So what’s interesting is, I didn’t know that about Nipsey Hussle until you said it because my introduction to where the Superior Man was when I was living in California and I was in these conscious spiritual communities that were mostly white folks who just that was like a Bible, for a lot of us, a lot of these people, and one of the things that was always so hard for me was based on like the definition of like, masculine essence and feminine essence in there, you know, take the lead, take initiative, initiate whatever, I would be a masculine essence, which, according to this polarity thing means that my best match would be a feminine essence, that is more passive and leans back, and I’m like, I’m actually not attracted to that. So there’s also like a little bit of gaslighting for people who don’t fit in the polarity binary, you know, I’m like, we started out the conversation, different contexts, many things could be true at once, you know, like, I don’t mind initiating, and one of the things I came to in my dating life, that was kind of me reclaiming and healing from a lot of this conditioning that I got later in life, from books like Way of the Superior Man, and these kinds of polarity teachings that says, you know, women need to be soft, and gentle and receptive, and sit back and let the man lead, is I just decided, You know what, any man that’s going to be for me, is going to be someone who’s just so relieved that I am so direct. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  46:20

And I just say what I want, because he’s like, great. She says what she means no games, I don’t have to read signals. If she wants something she’s going to ask like, I’m like, and I don’t know where that falls on these people’s spectrum. But I just don’t have the time or the patience. To I try Listen, can you imagine you know me pretty well. Now, imagine me trying to like lean back and be a passive person, and wait for some motherfucker to make a move. Or like

Weeze Doran  46:45

I would have loved to watch it happen. Like, more of like, as a social experiment I taught.

Elizabeth DiAlto  46:53

And I found with a partner who had studied with David data had like gone to like all the workshops, who was actually a very passive person himself. And so oddly, I ended up in the fucking dynamic, but I hated. And it was so easy for the both of us, you know, it wasn’t, because then you end up performing an energetic

Weeze Doran  47:14

Yeah. And that just goes back to, again, that is a telltale sign that none of these teachings are rooted in liberation, because what liberation says is find a partner that complements and creates balance. And we all all of us possess the masculine and feminine essence inside of us. And there are going to be some situations in which one of the partners is better suited to lean into their masculine. And the other will be, you know, will lead into their feminine so to speak. So, for example, I have always been very, very financially literate, very financially sound, in my previous marriage, in my relationships, I have always been the one that’s like, when we, you know, you get to the point of like, we’re splitting bills. This is how we’re spending money having that I’m always the first one that’s like, How much money do you make? How do you spend your money? What is your savings look like? Blah, blah, blah, creating a financial plan, like I’m leading that ship, because I spent a long time studying financial literacy to make sure Well, part of it was to break generational curses, because of the ways in which historically, women have not had access to it. But I’m like, if I know this, and it like it’s like clockwork, in my brain, and it’s super easy for me, why wouldn’t you just let me do it? You’re really good at other things, right. And so it’s this idea of leadership. In a liberated society, we say, allow the person to lead in the moment who is best suited for that position.

Elizabeth DiAlto  48:39

Amen. In freaking hallelujah.

Weeze Doran  48:41

Right. And also, overall, in your relationship dynamic, if you are looking for a relationship where one person aka the SIS man is, by default, the leader and is dominant, and is you know, like, the quote unquote, vocal man, then all you are saying, saying is that you want to reproduce systems of power and oppression in relationship. And frankly, if that’s what you want, by all means, enjoy, because a liberated society says you get to have whatever you want. However, just be clear that that is what you are stepping into. Yeah. Right. Because when I think about like a man, I don’t actually think that’s not how I think about it. Like when I tell people like, I want a man. My definition is like, I just want you to be emotionally literate. I want you to have a relationship to your body and your spirit and your entire being. I want you to be totally fine and comfortable having really hard emotional conversations and being vulnerable. Let me tell you, vulnerability is the sexiest strength and a man so hot. Oh, sexy, right now, if you just heard me say, Well, I want to man this is where it gets weaponized. It’s like, oh, well, wheezes talks about liberation, but she’s reinforcing No, no, no, no, no. I I hold a different vision of men’s possibility, I hold a different vision of what’s capable for them. Because not only have I seen it, but again, I trust that anybody who chooses liberation and healing is capable of getting there. Yeah, it’s a choice. So all I need is for you to choose it, and then I’m holding a space for you to become it. Yeah.

Elizabeth DiAlto  50:20

Yeah. And this is why we talked about this a little early, we can come back to it, a lot of this men’s work that is only focused on getting men into their heart. The great thing about that is, that’s a really important place to start. That needs to happen. That’s where the ability to like be vulnerable, and speak and the things that you’re describing here come from, which is very important, very attractive, and quite crucial for NTSC, and growth, and the advancement of society. But what’s really missing is, if that’s all people are doing, if we’re only getting men to their hearts, and now, we just now have a whole entire society of men who could talk about their feelings. That’s great, and it’s progress. But if we are not looking at and unpacking internalized misogyny, how far are we actually be able to get and I bring this up, because you and I, one of the things we’re really excited about, one of the reasons we’re having this conversation is because this summer, we’re going to kick off a program for men. And one of the reasons I even brought up with the Superior Man is because one of the big complaints about that from women, is men telling women how to be feminine. Yep. Which in a lot of ways, like we’re saying is not liberatory. But in order for men to like realize, like, the depth and multidimensionality of masculinity, they do actually have to listen to women about how they have been harmed. And the masculinity that they’ve been socialized in, has been so harmful. And again, see whole entire conversation we’ve had up to this point. Is there anything else you want to say about that?

Weeze Doran  52:01

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, again, just really reinforcing like, we’ve all internalized misogyny, obviously, we all swim in the waters, but and also, there needs to be a space. And this is why I’m so excited about our program that we’re creating in the space that we’re creating. There needs to be a space that allows men and I think this is herein lies the issue where men can actually take a moment to look at the ways in which not only they’ve internalized misogyny, but they don’t even realize that they’ve internalized misogyny, and they don’t even see the ways in which they’re then performing out of that internalized misogyny, without then being chastised for the exploration, being told that they’re the problem, right? Like all of those things, you need to do your work, like write this, or how about what exactly, Bell Hooks talks about this, she’s like, we want them to do better, but then we say go figure the fuck out by yourself. I’m not doing the work, I’m not helping you. And I’m gonna make you feel all of these negative things, because you haven’t figured it out? Well, bro, if they knew how to do it, they would have been.

Elizabeth DiAlto  53:02

That’s one of things we’re excited about. Because ultimately, we might have a lot of beef with men, like specific and Aleste. All the stuff that we’ve talked about the bigger beef is with patriarchy. Yes, the bigger beef is with the system. And so we are people who with our own skill sets and life experiences, as well, are like very well equipped and very excited, and have a lot of space to hold for men who want to do this work without being ashamed. And as a healing professional, I can also say, being witnessed by women, and being able to express yourself to women who are not going to criticize you, who are going to be like, yes, thank you for saying that. And celebrate the shit out of the realizations in the moments and the things that you’re having, and be patient with you and give you the time that you need. Because this is one of one of the things that drives me so nuts about our current culture. And a lot of this has to do with the proliferation of social media and like the digital age, is people want everything to happen so quickly, because things move so quickly. That’s not how grief works. That’s not how it processing works. That’s not I mentioned earlier, like the distance between the head and the COC. We don’t build that bridge in 30 seconds for after we watch a damn reel about it.

Weeze Doran  54:27

No, I mean, it’s it’s fundamentally impossible to expect people to create any sort of transformation in themselves without actually giving them not just the information, but then the practices and then the place to practice. Yeah. Right. Like Kobe didn’t get to be Kobe without a basketball court and somebody to show them how to shoot. You know what I mean? Like, Jordan will tell you the same thing. I’ve been on a basketball kick. So that’s where that came from. But, you know, it’s like, they practiced they had Coaches and guides to show them they had a cord to play on.

Elizabeth DiAlto  55:05

Listen, I’ve been over this by accident. I’ve been a retired Knicks fan for decades because I just smart couldn’t take it for a while. I was gonna say it was doing well this year and I was like, dri there I did back and I come back. Oh, I hear you the pat. You’re like Kobe. I’m like about Patrick Ewing, John Starks.

Weeze Doran  55:28

Sorry. You know, I’m a Lakers fan. So I know.

Elizabeth DiAlto  55:32

I still like you all agree that Reggie Miller is a piece of shit

Weeze Doran  55:35

100% that no one’s arguing with and immediately anyone that’s an Indiana

Elizabeth DiAlto  55:39

Pacers fan is like I’m not working with

Weeze Doran  55:43

luck, y’all. I mean, we can have that conversation. But right, but I think you know, just kind of like getting back to how how we just like really need to create these spaces. And I think the biggest thing if no one takes anything else from this this episode, I wish that we could create a society that fundamentally said, Yeah, we really don’t like patriarchy, we hate patriarchy. We love men. Yes. Love man. I had a dude literally yesterday, he watched one of my videos on IG from like three years ago. So I didn’t even remember. I don’t even remember recording it. But fundamentally, I was talking about like the downfalls of patriarchy, and a lot of this stuff. And he was like, I just have one question. I said, What’s up? And he was like, Do you hate men? And I said, Why would you think that he was like, well, you in this video, you were really critical. And I said, was I critical of men or was like critical of social and political structures. And he was like, social and political structures. 

Weeze Doran  56:42

And I was like, Okay, so where was I critical of people? And like, because I could leave with curiosity, like he got there on his own. But it’s like, that’s the point, right? Like, let’s be critical together. Let’s invite the men in you to say, Listen, we love y’all. And we actually want to pour this love into y’all. And we want you to be cool, loving us back and learning how to do that and yourselves. And then we need you to help us eradicate this entire system.

Elizabeth DiAlto  57:06

Yes. And to be clear, when we use is using the word critical. She’s talking in the context of critique. Right? Yes. Not criticizing you not? Yeah. Meeting you to filth? Not there’s also a difference, right? Because here’s something that unfortunately, we can’t separate. Is this gonna trigger people’s shame? Yes. Why? Because you’ve done things that you should be ashamed of. But we know that you’ve done those things because you didn’t know any better. So we’re not holding that against you. But we are you feeling shame, because you’re coming to a realization that you’ve done things you should be ashamed of, is not a shaming you and us being like, yes, feel that shame and get it out of your system, understand where it came from, and then you don’t have to do that shit anymore. That’s always that’s one of the things that I’ve loved so much about my own liberatory healing path and journey is the relief of being like, Oh, my God, now that I understand, I don’t have to do that anymore. Yeah. And I, oh, man, I’ve met men. I’ve had this experience with men when they get there. 

Elizabeth DiAlto  58:12

And it’s like, God, because that’s what so many people, and here’s the thing, one of the reasons I love men is because they care. Not everyone, right? Of course, like there’s always gonna be shitty, you know, I think of everything like a bell curve. And that but the middle of the bell curve is people who actually care and actually give a shit. And once they know better, they’re happy to do better. It might take some practice, they might stumble. But in the basketball conversation reminds me that Dwayne Wade, add back in the day, fall down seven times, get up eight

Weeze Doran  58:39

seconds, get up. Yep. I love. You touched on a piece, which I think is super important to name. And also, I mean, we literally planned it into our curriculum is the piece of being able to sit with and process, whatever feeling and in this context of this conversation, we were talking about shame, but it’s like, feel it, move through it, figure out get curious about where it came from. That’s also not something that we give men the space to do, we apply an extreme amount of urgency on them. I mean, socially, we move out of urgency in general, but specifically with men and specifically around their emotions. We don’t give them the space to like, just process and feel. And, you know, that’s specifically why we have two whole integration months. And that’s something that like we should I just want to name publicly now. Because I feel like there’s going to be a lot of dudes that enter into this program that are like, yes, let’s learn about internalized misogyny. Yes, give me the emotional literacy. Let’s talk about intimacy and love. But then they’re like, Hold on, wait. You want me to sit with myself? For months?

Elizabeth DiAlto  59:41

Well, and this is also one of the things I love about men. They want to get it right. Yeah. And that’s not exclusive to men, but it’s like also the conversation we’re having that’s been built into them. Of course, it’s like I want to get this right. I want to do well, like, give me the gold star. You want me to run down the curriculum for a second? Yes, please. And there’s a page that you could go to what’s going to be the link on your page,

Weeze Doran  1:00:03

it’s going to be recording news.com backslash living legend.

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:00:07

Cool. And I’m also our show notes, if you go to untamed yourself.com, forward slash links, will also make sure it’s there as well. And wherever you’re listening to the podcast, like the link will be there as well on whatever platform. So we’re gonna start out by doing like the learning of how to unpack and dismantle your own internalized misogyny, just so you could see it and understand it. And then we’re gonna get into what I referenced earlier, going out on an emotional limb developing the emotional literacy, intelligence and maturity. After that, we’re going to get into examining the entitled and extractive conditioning, like how are men transactional with women how to men treat and use women as resources, instead of people. So that’s going to be a very humanizing module, that is also a deeper application of what you learned in internalizing misogyny. So we designed this so that you get to kind of learn the thing, like build the awareness, and then do the analysis in another module later on. Right. And then from what we go over in emotional literacy, intelligence and maturity, the final module will be on cultivating real love and intimacy.

Weeze Doran  1:01:19

And I want to be clear, that’s not just romantic, like we’re talking about with yourself, we’re talking about with your family, with your friends, to everybody,

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:01:27

because, listen, this is something again, in my anthropological endeavors. One of the things I noticed that as has honestly softened my heart, even in moments when I’ve become like, kind of jaded, or just like, the disappointment have built up on me, and I want to just be like, Fuck, man, I never go all the way there. But when I’m close, I always think about the dude sometimes who I’ll meet. And before we’ve even like gone on a date, someone will be like, texting me their life story. Or like a good example, a month or two ago, I met someone on app we hadn’t met yet. And then the next day, he’s like, Oh, my God, this crazy thing happened this morning. And I just have to tell someone, and I’m like, we connected yesterday. Why am I the person getting this text message. But it just reminds me that a lot of men have a lot of people in their life, but not people they can actually talk to about anything real, and especially not other men. And again, not the case for everybody. Some men have grown, they can talk to about everything. And that’s amazing. But that is not the dominant majority experience for men.

Weeze Doran  1:02:37

Yeah, the other thing that I want to name is that, like, on top of this curriculum, you know, there is we keep talking about the world to change. I think that every single human body that is capable of it needs to read or listen to or have read to them. Bell Hooks is the will to change. So naturally, y’all if you enroll if you join us, you will be reading it. And obviously we’re going to give you other fun like excerpts and things like that from other resources. But it is just a beautifully written, profoundly insightful journey through the liberation of our relationship to patriarchy, men, women, trans folk, like everybody, everybody, secretly, I’m like, making you all sign up so that you have to read this book. Within the

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:03:27

book, there’s references to all these other books that are so good. I actually just ordered a couple of the Terence real books that she taught me in there. Yeah, a friend of actually good friend of mine interviewed him on her podcast, I was like, Ooh, if I ever go back to interviews, maybe well, we’ll talk to him. And we’re also gonna have some guests mentors.

Weeze Doran  1:03:43

Yes. And then during those into integration months, because, listen, you’re gonna be if you enroll, you’re gonna be talking to me and Elizabeth a lot. But we also obviously, and as we’ve said, on this podcast, we know and we are in a community with phenomenal men that have gone through this journey, they have done their work, and they will be the first ones to tell you the people that we have in mind, you know, they’ll be the first ones to tell you like, just like with anything else, every liberatory journey. This is imperfect, it is messy, it is not linear. You know, you I have a homie who always says in his journey to unpack patriarchy, he’s like, play his fuckup like, you know, like, he’s to walk forward, you walk back, like, and that’s gonna happen, but it is super important, beyond just us, right? Like guiding you through this journey. And you know, the practices and the knowledge and all of that, to hear from and connect to sis men who have done this, who have been where y’all are and who are just further along in their journey, and can hold space for you and model those things. So I’m really excited about that element too.

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:04:44

And, you know, just to wrap up here, kind of like we were saying earlier, you don’t set boundaries with people. You’re not trying to keep around. You don’t have tough conversations with people you’re not trying to be around Wesen I would not take the time to create this and do this if we did not fully believe in men. capacity and capability to like step in and step up to this or also their desire. And so that’s also something just like from my heart that I’m very excited, because I do know that we live in an age where it can be very problematic narrative to be like, it’s a really tough time to be a man right now. Right? Like, you know, some people like Crimea river you have right, like the dominant power experience for millennia. But also it actually is, and keeping you there keeping men there is not how we all get liberated. So this is super important.

Weeze Doran  1:05:36

Yeah, I like to say it’s a really tough time to have a human experience in a male body right now.

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:05:41

Yeah, well, I’m

Weeze Doran  1:05:44

just gonna say, I mean, fundamentally, we are of the belief, like we’ve said that men just don’t have access to their humanity. And unfortunately, right now, we’re living in a cultural temperature, right, like pressure cooker, that is actually saying, Hey, do better, but also shut the fuck up and figure it out on your own. And I don’t know about you, but I am a forever student. I’m constantly learning things, and I love to learn. And never once have I evolved, whether it be emotionally or an actual skill set, by shutting the fuck up and figuring it out on my own. In fact, that’s a great way to guarantee that I don’t try to do anything.

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:06:24

Listen. And you know, we talked a bit about the feminism that we’re not into, I think about women who say things like, I’d like to just put all the men on a spaceship and send them out to another planet and have like an all women’s society. I would hate that. I have no bro, right? We need the men we need. And I really want to emphasize that because you know, I have seen a string of like, tiktoks and stuff of men being like, women don’t need us anymore. Like, what do they need? Because, again, they’re socialized their whole lives, especially think of men who are like, the millennial to the xennials. Like me, like the KOSPI, like you’re not Gen X, you’re not a millennial, Gen X. And it’s like, you’ve been conditioned your whole life to be provider and protector. And now more women are out here just provide it for themselves. And it’s like, what’s my value? Right? If women don’t need me in that capacity anymore, so it’s like, we need you for so many other things.

Weeze Doran  1:07:18

Yeah. My goal is that men will come out of living legends and understand that when women say, I don’t need you, but I choose you. Yes. Did we not tell them we’re calling it living legend? Oh, by the way of the reverend.

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:07:32

We want you to be reverent like Reverend of your own humanity, reverence of all humanity, for the world safer for yourself safer for your relations. 100 just

Weeze Doran  1:07:44

fully connected to your own human experience, I promise you that we didn’t get into it. But like, the rise in like depression and mental health issues across the board, but specifically for men, is and this is not my opinion, this is actually behavioral, social science and data is directly connected to men’s inability, men, because they’ve intentionally been taught not they’re in capability, right, but their current inability to connect to their emotions to be embodied, and to have spaces where they can actually get support and help and have emotionally rooted conversations without shame, or guilt, or all of the other things that come with it. So if nothing else, like, save yourself, save yourself, help yourself. And then there’s a happy consequence on the other side. Am I gonna like you a lot better, whatever reason

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:08:38

I want to wrap it up, I go and also treat yourself and sign up.

Weeze Doran  1:08:45

If you don’t watch Parks and Rec, so you don’t get

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:08:47

it, but it’s fun. All right, everybody, we’re gonna put all the links again, you can go to according to ease.com forward slash living legends, you can go to untamed yourself.com forward slash links, you’ll be able to find all the information about the program. We also are hosting an info session if you want to, if you’re like, This sounds cool, but I’m not really sure if it’s for me, it’s not or maybe you want to get more of a feel for me and we is or if you have any questions, we’re hosting an info session on June 20. And the information for that we’ll be on that same page. So come to that if you want to learn more and there’s not enough information for you on the page. And that’s it. Thank you so much for listening. I know my audience is largely women so share this with your men and also share it with yourself because this is gonna be confronting for some women who really enjoy being angry and blaming men for a lot of shit.

Weeze Doran  1:09:31

Yeah, and because listen, some things are their fault when they know better and then they choose not to do better. But that’s a completely different conversation.

Elizabeth DiAlto  1:09:39

Correct? All right, everyone, I guess we’ll stop talking now. We’re done. We’re done this way. The program seven months. We got a lot to cover. I toodles