Are you living according to your truth and in a state of embodiment?
Many of us live in our heads, making decisions according to our cultural conditioning and what we feel we “should” do. But when you learn to tap into your body, you can live, work, and exist in alignment with your inner truth.
In today’s episode, I’m chatting with Feminine Embodiment Coach Jenna Ward about her experience with feminine embodiment and magnetism.
As a coach, Jenna helps women get in touch with their feminine energy and practice embodiment in their daily lives. She teaches her students how to open themselves up to new possibilities and live in alignment with their truths.
Two main things that she really focuses on are magnetism and discernment.
Through gentle guidance, acceptance, and body awareness she teaches her students how to stay in tune with her body and emotions.
Join me in today’s episode as I chat with Jenna about what it means to be embodied and why we both think society as a whole would benefit from it. Jenna is also sharing her advice for practicing magnetism in your life and work, and she’s opening up about inspiring embodiment in her toddler.
Listen to episode 377 now!
In episode 377 of the Embodied Podcast we discuss:
- [2:50] Exploring feminine divinity and defining “God” for yourself
- [7:20] How our experience of the divine changes based on where we are physically and emotionally
- [13:23] Accepting that there are things outside of our control and surrendering to the universe
- [17:13] Understanding how our communities affect us and the narratives we live by
- [21:33] Why we seek comfort from outside sources when we’re faced with discomfort and the unknown
- [26:31] The role magnetism plays in your spiritual practice and every aspect of your life
- [32:55] How to tap into your magnetism to attract what you truly want and open yourself up to possibilities
- [41:22] Why we need embodiment both in our personal lives and in society as a whole
- [44:17] Understanding discernment and how embodiment can lead you to your truth
- [56:20] How to encourage embodiment in others, especially in children and young people
Resources mentioned by Elizabeth in the episode:
- Visit Jenna’s website to learn more about feminine embodiment
- Listen to my episode with Dana Meyers
- Listen to my episode with Adrienne Maree Brown
- Explore the Self-Love Mini Course
- Join The Wild Soul Sacred Body Membership.
- Email us with questions or feedback.
- Don’t miss an episode of The Embodied Podcast.
Quote from this Week’s Episode of the Embodied Podcast:
- [00:42:33] “It feels natural to me and obvious that in my belief system is that in some way, Earth or this concept of the divine or the feminine is literally shaking more and more of us awake.” – Jenna Ward
How was this episode for you?
Was this episode helpful for you today? I’d love to know what quote or lesson touched your soul. Let me know in the comments below OR share the episode on Instagram, tag me your stories @elizabethdialto, or send me a DM!
About the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto
Since 2013 I’ve been developing a body of work that helps women embody self-love, healing, and wholeness. We do this by focusing on the four levels of consciousness – physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.
In practical terms, this looks like exploring tools and practices to help you tune into the deep wisdom of the body and the knowing of the heart, which I believe are gateways to our souls. Then we cultivate a new relationship with our minds that allows the mind to serve this wisdom and knowledge and soul connection, rather than override it, which is what many of us were taught.
If you’ve been doing self-help or spiritual development work for a while, these are the types of foundational things that often people overlook in pursuit of fancier concepts that often aren’t practical or sustainable. Here, we will focus on building these strong foundations so you can honestly and thoroughly embody self-love. If you’re feeling it, subscribe to the show, and leave us a review wherever you listen from. You can also keep up with show updates and community discussion on Instagram here.
Transcripts for Episode 377:
– Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode number 377 of the Embodied Podcast. I am your host, Elizabeth DiAlto. And today, we are here with Jenna Ward, the founder of the School of Embodied Arts. Jenna is a fellow embodiment practitioner, and we had a great time talking about all things embodiment in this episode, from weaving it into her parenting of her two-year-old daughter, to politics, how we vote with our time, energy, attention, and our dollars to the difference between the land that you live on and places that travel to, and how those things impact the way that you experience your own body, your own energy, and connecting to the divine. This is a super juicy conversation. I hope you thoroughly enjoy it. Show notes, links to everything that we mentioned in the episode can be found at www.untameyourself.com/377. And let’s get into the show.
– Jenna, welcome.
– Thank you so much for having me, Elizabeth.
– I’m really excited. We had… I don’t know. Was it a podcast or a series that you did where we got to chat last year?
– Last year, we spoke for a conference that I held online. So it was podcasty style,
– Yeah, yeah, yeah.
– but it was a very popular interview.
– Oh great. And it was so fun, like, you and I have been in each other’s orbits for so many years and we do very similar work, but very differently which I love.
– So great, it’s finally connect last year and I’m excited to have you here now. So this year, the opening, I usually have one opening question, but this year I kind of have two bordering on three, depending on how the first two get answered. So the first one is what is your relationship to God, the divine or whatever you call that right now? And also, let us know what you call it.
– Hmm. That is a very, very big question. So for me, I have a sense of faith that’s non-denominational. I don’t particularly or strongly resonate with the concept of God because to me, I was brought up Catholic. To me, that just somehow has a really masculine or male connotation in particular. And if that’s your word, I’m totally down with that. My sense is that when we are having faith in something that’s beyond ourselves, really it’s all the same thing no matter what we call it. So for me, I tend to, like, what nourishes me is often if I’m to imagine it, I’m often imagining or feeling, seeing, sensing, or tapping into something that has more of a feminine energy. So that often becomes personified in some type of… Again, not even denominational, which is interesting because if I think about my heritage, I’m a mix of Maltese, Irish. Raised Catholic in Australia so I’m a white woman that lives in a colonized land. I don’t necessarily even have a strong background in terms of non-Christian ways that my ancestors have related to the feminine. So even when I think of the feminine, there’s not a strong ancestral lineage of, like, “Well, who is she? What is the archetype? What is the goddess?” So it’s very loose and very loosely formed, but I can always tap into that, which I feel that sense of faith and connection through to some form of the feminine, whether it’s feeling earth, feeling a circle of women, imagining just the essence of a goddess, tapping into the seasons of mother nature, and being in a woman’s body, I identify as a woman, coming home to my own body, and just marveling at the magic that exists within that. So I would probably say my faith is a very loose form of feminine divinity that doesn’t neatly go into anyone box.
– I love that.
– That’s something that alivens me so much when I tap into it.
– I love that. And here’s why I’m asking this because I know that we’re on this cusp. There’s still so many religious people in the world and world religions still exist. But there’s so many people, I was also raised Catholic, who were either raised a certain way and that’s not what they resonate with anymore. And they’re searching, and all of this is beyond language anyway, right? And I love how you described it as like a faith and an energy and that’s really what it is, but because we’re humans and we have brains, we do need language. So I love, in every interview, giving people an opportunity to hear someone else’s way of relating to it or speaking about it that you never know might really land for someone. And then they’re, like, “Oh great, now I know how to have a better conversation with this thing.” Because I was raised Catholic and it was just always God, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that word works. One syllable, fine.” And I know some people that were so… That word could be so triggering for people. So that’s why I think it’s interesting to just know what do you call it. How do you engage with it?
– Hmm. Yeah. Even the word goddess doesn’t really resonate strongly with me. I feel like similar to what you’ve described, there’s so many ways that we’ve taken words or concepts, and either misappropriated them, or used them in harmful or damaging ways. And I think the goddess is a beautiful concept, absolutely. But in the climate and the location that I live in and what I’m exposed to, the way I see Goddess personified is not always what I’m feeling. I’m feeling like that feminine energy beyond the characteristics of human form, that ability for life to be ravishing itself, and concealing, and revealing itself with every new vista. It’s that sense of real aliveness beyond the three dimensional, which is what I tap into when I tap into this loose concept of the feminine.
– I love that. And I’m curious ’cause we were just talking before we started recording, your family, you kind of split. You live in two different places, yeah?
– We do. My husband’s Dutch. So we live between the Netherlands and I’m Australian. And so right now, we have two homes.
– And I’m curious. Here’s why I’m asking this. I’ve lived in so many different places. And finally, I’m in Miami and I’m, like, “Yes, this is the place.” But literally had to try out 15 cities to realize that Miami is the place. And I’m curious for you. Does how you relate and connect to, and feel, and commune with that change ’cause those are two very different places? And I’ve actually been. You all live… You live in Brisbane, or you live on the Sunny Coast?
– I live on the Sunny Coast.
– I found this to be one of the most magical places I’ve ever been to in my life.
– I hear you. I’m not originally from the Sunshine Coast. I had a boyfriend once who lived there, and I visited it for the first time. And something hooked into me from that place, and it is where I just feel most alive. And it’s really interesting. I’ve discussed this with a lot of my friends in Australia who are really into embodiment shockingly, and we’ve spoken a lot about how the land that we’re on and the location where we’re landing our body can impact or influence or inspire, of course, what our faith is, but also just the possibilities. And I find, I experience for myself that when I’m on the soil in Australia, also particularly at the Sunshine Coast, which is this beautiful strand of gorgeous beaches, there is something about that location, the wilderness, the nature, the recency of even civilization in that land. Of course, it has been civilized by Australian First Nation people. But these people are in such harmony with the earth and the rhythms in a really embodied way historically, not so much recently since it’s been colonized. But speaking just really generally, there are so many factors in Australia, which I find to be that it is so much easier for me to be in my body and connected to this sense of faith when I’m on that land. And when I’m in the Netherlands, which is not my homeland, even though many, many, many years ago, I might have had ancestors from here, there’s a different weather. The cities are more compact. Everything is cultivated within an inch of its life because everyone lives on these really small parcels of land. And the Netherlands is a beautiful place, but I really have to go searching for my connection to nature and to that sense of wild, alive energy, which is just ubiquitous in Australia.
– So I hugely believe that location that we’re on and I have the great privilege to be able to. I’ve had that really illuminated this year being particularly in lockdown in the Netherlands and craving a different land for me to just land my body in and to activate me ’cause the land that we’re on I feel does a lot of the work for us in terms of connecting spirituality or that devotion of practice.
– Totally. And I’m wondering too. I mean, you were talking about not even just the land, but the nature, the rawness. That’s something I really liked about the Sunshine Coast. I mean, like you said, civilized and developed, but like… Even when I’m in Miami, my one gripe about Miami is it is so highly developed. When I left California, I was so over California, but I will tell you, one of the things I’ve been missing, I lived in Malibu for a little while and that coastline is just really the most magical. Once you get out of Santa Monica and start moving more towards Malibu along the Pacific Coast Highway out there in Southern California, it’s just these magic and there’s these cliffs. It actually reminds me a lot about being in Portugal. Some of the rock structures, it’s just more raw. And where I am in Miami me on the beach, the tourism here, this is the most tourist city I’ve ever lived in. And so the way everything is just like developed is… I mean, the ocean is the ocean and that’s gonna be wild either way, but still that is definitely. It’s funny, like, those little things go make such a difference. They change the energy so much.
– It’s so true. And it’s interesting I think also to discover what your disposition is because for me, like you were describing that rugged coastline with just a vista of the ocean horizon, that is just such medicine when I gaze on that. It instantly just does so much for me. And everyone is so different. I was speaking about this with one of my colleagues at our school just last week when we were speaking about being activated by the intensity of sun. There’s really bright, hot sun in Australia and it’s a lot milder in the Netherlands, and she’s in the UK. And we were speaking about that activation even by the intensity of the sun in different locations. And she was sharing that actually, no, that’s exactly not what helps her to be in her body. For her, it’s a totally different recipe. And I just find it so interesting that the more sensitive we get to our bodies and to these nuances of what really turns us on and dials us in, the more we can understand what conditions and how many conditions are influencing how we feel, and how we land, and how we then go on to relate in any moment.
– This, this, this, this, this, this. I saw this beautiful. I’m gonna see if I can pull it up quick enough on Instagram, but it was quite a while ago. I had one other podcast interview today, which I’m pretty sure Dana’s goes up the week before yours. So it was probably last week. Dana Myers, I don’t know if you know who she is, but you probably love her ’cause she’s very sensual and pleasure-oriented. But we were talking about how any given moment, there are just so many factors impacting whatever you think you might be making choices about in your life, right? And so we make such a big deal about choice, but even when we’re making choices that we think are conscious and intentional, there’s so many other things that are factoring into the outcomes of stuff. I’m not gonna be able to find this on Instagram, and I don’t really wanna waste the time. It was something, like, before someone looks at a plant, they look at the winds, they look at the sun, they look at the moisture in the soil. And I was, like, “That’s like us.” The reason why I had attached that to a post about rather than going, what’s wrong with me or why is this happening to me? Why don’t you also look at what’s going on around me?
– Oh my gosh. Absolutely. And there is such a disposition in our hyper-individualized cultures for everything to begin and end with you.
– Particularly in the self-development world, which I am within. It’s, like, “What did you manifest? Or what did you not manifest? Or what did you create? Or what did you not create?” There’s so many factors going on besides you, so many other factors at play. I wish I could write your comprehensive list, but I actually can’t because I’m in an eye too.
– Yeah. And that’s the thing. We’ll never even know what some of them were. I mean, I laugh. I mean, surrender and trust have been like bedrocks of my work for so many years now, but it’s just, like, it’s actually the only thing that makes any sense. Yes. We just know so much less than we think we do.
– I feel like this is really a remnant of you asked that question right at the top around faith. To me, this concept of having faith, which is that surrender and trust, that’s almost like the feminized end of the poll. And the opposite of that is if we are not in faith and trust and surrender, then we are in knowing. In this time, we are all so obsessed and we’re so encouraged to know everything. The more you know, the clever you are, the more you are celebrated. And this intellectual level of knowing and being able to nut everything out, which I can totally get off on times. Like, I’m quite an intelligent person. A lot of us are, but we have a lot of other skills I feel beyond intelligence. And so I think it’s really healthy to have that other more feminized end of the poll. That sense of faith, trust as you described and surrender, to me that’s a muscle that’s as equal in its worthiness of developing as my intelligence.
– Totally. And this is funny because I was writing something also this morning about these two specific needs that are programmed into us. Actually, wreak havoc on our lives in so many ways. And it’s the need to be right and the need to know. There’s just so many. Again, when we talk about all the factors and all the things going on, there’s so many things that are actually isn’t a specific right or wrong for unless it’s like a mathematical equation. Almost everything.
– Almost everything.
– Almost everything.
– Having so much of what we call science is there’s so much that is not known.
– So much. And I’ve never thought about this more than during the pandemic because, obviously, even watching how things evolve with, like… And I actually have several friends in Europe, so this is one of the things that’s really been influencing how I look at this is when we see how data and information has been treated around the pandemic in other countries versus the United States, especially European countries. It’s so fascinating to me. Especially I had a friend visiting the other week from the UK, she’s like, “Yeah, it just wasn’t politicized here or attached to morality, like vaccines specifically, the way it was for you, guys.” Like, you don’t even know. Like, maybe you don’t know, and people are not obsessed with it, or like ending friendships, or breaking business partnerships and crap over whether or not someone got vaccinated. Again, I’m using Europe as a blanket. I’m sure it’s different country to country, but it’s just so interesting to me.
– Yeah. I saw this acutely interestingly ’cause I follow the Australian news, and then live in the Netherlands. And it was so illuminating to see how the disposition of the media reflected the disposition of the culture in how things unraveled. So specifically, for Australia, Australia being an island, there a lot of the times, a lot of their policy, I speak about them as them, I’m an Australian. So we, but also them.
– Right, right, right.
– Speak about like Australia a lot is we are an island. We can just keep everything we don’t want out. Asylum seekers, immigrants that don’t pass our test, not my test, our government’s test, coronavirus. “Let’s just keep it all out and just we’ll look after ourselves, mate,” is generally Australia’s approach to pretty much everything including climate policy. Oh, we’ll keep mining coal. Everyone else can take care of themselves in the climate crisis. I have a lot of issues with the Australian government. And it was so interesting being in the Netherlands, where there’s no such thing as a border. There are towns that literally are between countries. And so it was just really interesting to see how so much of the media reflected just the disposition and the climate of the people rather than the facts. They’re just choosing to craft whatever narratives they want. It very rarely has anything to do with actual facts. It is no way by partial. And that was so evident watching the Australian news while not being in Australia.
– It’s kind of how I felt living in California and then living in Miami ’cause they’re just completely two different cultures. I’m gonna put it in air quotes, like the “freest places” right now around all of that. And California is one of the most, again, I’m putting it in air quotes, “restricted places” with mandates and rules, and all these things. And then Miami, you come here. I remember the first time I came last year to visit. Whenever I move somewhere, I always go, I’m like, “I gotta put my body on the land. I gotta feel it. I gotta see if this is my place.” And then also go around, fill out the areas where might I wanna put myself down. And when I came here, it was so disorienting. It was like being in another country on another planet. I don’t know ’cause everything was just so strict in California. Mask everywhere. And here, it was like, “Oh, is a pandemic happening in Miami?”
– Let’s have a holiday.
– Oh my God. And then, yeah, so that was just fascinating. And so to bring it back to that, like that needs to be right and the needs to know was something, like, literally two years in, there’s still so much we don’t know about COVID, and how it behaves, and who might be affected. And especially since the vaccines came into the picture last year, and who should get it, who shouldn’t, all these things, like, oh my God, it’s been so fascinating, but really also illuminating to see how it hatched people are to just needing to know anything that they could go on so they could have anything that they can control during such a scary time, especially.
– And I feel the media really plays on this because when we are not used to sitting with uncomfortable sensations and vulnerabilities in our body, of course, we go seeking more data, seeking more drama, seeking ways to separate from what we are feeling, and get busy, and get distracted. And I don’t know, like source our sensations from outside of us rather than just sitting, which I understand is potentially terrifying when so much is unknown, but we are so not used to sitting in the unknown, the discomfort, the vulnerability. And I totally put my hand up, especially at the start of the COVID situation. I was on the news every day, like, “What’s going on and what’s happening now?” And they’ve got a point within myself where I realized there’s actually a huge amount of tension and stress that’s building up in my body. And if I keep putting more of this media and data on top of my stress, that’s not actually helping me to address these internal stress levels. I think it’s a privilege to be able to say, “I’m gonna disconnect from the news or the rest of the world for a beat to take care of myself.” Like that’s a privilege that I had within this period of the pandemic and not everyone actually has that privilege. But I think it’s really interesting because to me, it really illuminated how collectively we are just so addicted to these sensations of drama beyond our bodies as a way to further desensitize and disembody ourselves.
– Yeah. And then seek the dopamine hits by finding people that agree with you, confirming, deepening, affirming your confirmation bias. It’s really been so fascinating. I actually posted something today that I was, like, “In these times where social media and traditional media are so often unreliable, untrustworthy, sometimes intentionally inflammatory and manipulative, embodiment is not an nice to have. We actually need it.” Because if we can’t depend on external sources, like, one of the biggest conversations I see people is, like, “Where do you get your news? Where do you find trustworthy news?” And people are, like, “I don’t know. where do you get your, like, I don’t know, this is the best of the worst.” And so where else do we get wisdom, like our internal sources, like the divine sources that we tap into? Which is why I’m so obsessed with embodiment, and I’m sure that’s a piece for you too.
– 100%. I get my news from the guardian, by the way. And that’s pretty good. But even that requires a degree, of, yeah, a huge degree of discernment. And it’s not only what we’re ingesting, I feel, in terms of the news. It’s also how we’re voting, literally voting. But I also mean voting with our dollar and voting with our time because the way that we are spending our dollars and the way that we are spending our time is what actually creates the future. And so if the way that we are in our bodies and the way that orientation decides how to spend their money and how to spend their time, if that’s actually not being really rooted deep into our values, if we haven’t really deeply examined what values we wanna hold, then we’re gonna start spending our dollars and spending our time in ways that don’t reflect our values and thereby create a future that does not reflect the one that we actually want. So I think it’s absolutely about the news that we’re putting in and the sources of data that we’re taking in. But it’s also hugely about, I feel, getting really curious about the values that we actually wanna hold and thus embody in the world.
– Yeah. I have to tell you something so funny that just popped into my mind. I just renamed all my shit. And one of them is my overall business really and mighty networks, I’d been calling it for a while now the Institute for Embodied Living. And I decided to change it to the School of Sacred Embodiment. And I had this moment after I posted it and announced it and I was, like, “Fuck! What is Jenna’s school called?” Cause in my mind, I was, like, “Is she the School of Feminine Embodiment?” ‘Cause there’s just so many of… And I was, like… But I went to your website and then it was, like, “Whew, School of Feminine Arts.” It’s like, I mean, again, there’s only so many words and so many things you can name things, but I had a whole moment. I was, like, “Did I just make it almost the same exact name?” I was dying. But when I went over to your website, one of the things that I was appreciating was that you put this big emphasis on magnetism. And that’s not really something I ever talk about. So I’m super curious why and how really that’s become one of the kind of anchor points, or core pieces, or entry points.
– Absolutely work. It’s really interesting. First of all, congrats on your name. I think it’s awesome. The School of Sacred Embodiment. Yeah. We’re the School of Embodied Arts.
– Embodied Arts. Okay, go, go.
– And we should totally do something together sometime because-
– Good. I’ll come, I will. After pandemic, I will come back to Australia and do things. So that could even be, that would be super fun.
– But to magnetism, it’s really interesting because I love embodiment. And this interesting thing always happens when I’m either doing my own embodiment practices, working with clients, coaching with clients. I’m a coach, that’s my thing. And I support other coaches to train in the field. So I work a lot with coaches who are in training and who also wanna master their own embodied skills. And for me, I am all about increasing the sensitivity to your body, unraveling and opening up that capacity that we have to let more of the feminine exist within the body. That naturally brings up all our edges around our tensions, and our traumas, and our lack of flow in the body. That naturally creates more pleasure in the body. And then this weird thing constantly happens in my life with my clients. It’s not I did not set out to be, like, “Let’s research magnetism, and figure out how it works, and then do it with everyone.” It accidentally kind of constantly and always happens as a side effect in a way of all of, I guess, what I see as the steps or the process of really getting into your body. And because it always happens, I feel like for me, became something really interesting in noticing this keeps showing up in my life. Can I research and understand a little bit more of the mechanics and the dynamics of what really makes us magnetic and how we can play with that? I also wanna admit that I come from a long lineage and I myself have historically been an overworker. And so a big part of getting back into my feminine energy has been figuring out, “Well, how can I work less? How can I strive less? How can I aim for perfection less? And how can I dial back all this doing?” And if I’m dialing all that doing down, something else needs to replace it. I feel like there is a void. If I’m not doing well, what is happening? And I feel the feminine end the other end of the spectrum is actually this concept of magnetism of drawing in that, which we desire, which is a form of doing, but a very feminized form of doing. So this is how the emphasis somewhat on magnetism came about because it’s just this side effect that happens, and thereby became something that I’ve researched extensively and used a lot with my coaching clients.
– Was there anything surprising to you in your research that you were, like, “No way!” or, like, “I just never would’ve thought of that.”?
– The principle of magnetism which… So magnetism is the quality that if we think about magnetic fields, the moon has a magnetic field and as the moon moves around the earth, that magnetic field draws the oceans to create tides. So if we think about that external analogy of magnetism, the ocean’s tides are created by magnetic fields. One of the most interesting things that I researched that I looked into was, “Okay, well, what is the me the scientifically measurable field of magnetism that is emitted by the human body?” And it’s really interesting. The HeartMath Institute has done quite a bit of research around this. And the largest field in our body as humans that actually creates magnetism is our heart. Don’t quote me, but it’s something like 60 times stronger than our mind in terms of the field that the organ actually begins to generate. And the measurable. So using our current scientific measuring instruments. The field of magnetism that can actually be measured by what the heart generates is several feet. It’s actually quite a distance away from our body. It can be detected, measured, and it can be influenced by a variety of different factors. So that’s one thing that I found that’s so interesting. This field of magnetism, like, the moon is a huge body. My body is comparatively a little bit smaller, but people who are within several feet of me, I’m talking six, seven feet, they are actually being influenced by the magnetic resonance that my heart is creating. And just like we can’t measure pain, but we know it’s true, we actually can measure magnetism within the body. And I can tell you, like, I’ve called in all kinds of things from a husband, houses, clients, all kinds of things, which I feel I have a knowing that magnetism has been a huge part in, I don’t wanna call it manifesting because I feel like I’m down with manifesting, but it’s not what we associate with conventional manifesting. Magnetism to me is something that’s much more receptive and in that feminine devotional sense that we are speaking about at the top of the podcast.
– Well, right. And it also feels aligns because just like we were talking earlier about how many factors there are that go into everything. Of course, we can intentionally connect with and think we know our heart, but of course, there are things that we don’t know that are affecting the field with the magnetism. And then also, I’m curious ’cause magnetism isn’t just all the positive, lovely, wonderful things.
– Absolutely not. Just exactly to what you said. So when we get clear on what it is that we are desiring or wanting to call in, one of the… When I coach with a client, we have a framework that we use, which is it’s like a diagram, but also a series of coaching, like tools and steps that we move through. And one of the first steps is to begin to get really curious about what is your relationship to that thing that you desire. So you might tell me, “I need a new home. I’m moving to Miami.” You might tell me, “I’m looking for love.” You might tell me, “I’m looking for a new client, or I’m ready for X amount of money.” Whatever it is that you might want to call in. And we may cognitively genuinely believe that that is the thing that we want, but when we actually begin to drop into the somatic intelligence of the body, and I know I’m preaching to the converted with you, and we get really curious about what is the body holding in relationship to that desire. Like one of the example questions that I love to explore is, like, where is that desire and relationship to you? How close do you sense it? Is it inside you? Is it behind you? Is it far away? So there’s a variety of different orientation, ways that we can orientate to that desire. But we begin to reveal so much that is actually turning our body-based magnet or that heart frequency that we spoke about. It’s actually inverting it into a secret I can’t have, a secret I don’t want. like I have worked with. I can’t tell you how many women who say I want X and when we actually drop into the orientation of their body, it’s actually a strong, repelling energy where that thing that I say that I want, I’m actually so close off to that. And I’m again hand up. I have been. I did a magnetism practice just a week ago. And when I dropped into this first experience of it, this thing that I was telling myself that I wanted, I was so unavailable for that. So yeah. It’s like it can be sensual and enjoyable, but it’s also-
– Just revealing.
– It’s revealing, for sure.
– And this is another reason why I love embodiment so much because… I mean, I see a lot. I actually love social media, particularly Instagram, but I have a big capacity of connecting with people that way. But it’s fascinating to me how Instagram, especially for people who are oriented towards spiritual or personal development can just be the worst place to be for people who are not embodied because it’s just meme after meme, after meme of stuff for you to think about. And just like kind of regurgitate, or just take it on or in. Even when I write ’cause I write a lot, I’m constantly trying to invite people to some kind of experience of what I’m saying rather than just here’s something I said that you could be, like, “Oh yes, this,” or whatever ’cause it could be so cerebral.
– I hear you. And I think the successful thing with the meme is often, like, the shorter or more potent or catchy it is, that more memorable. And it just loses all nuance,
– which means
– and depth, you know?
– In order to really take something in. And I mean, really take it in, and let it simmer in ourselves, and percolate, and contemplate for it to really come into the body. We have to be not just that quick hit of, like, “Oh yeah. Oh that’s a cool idea. Oh yeah.” I so agree with you. It has to be metabolized and digested with that said. Shoot over to my Instagram, and I’m sure you’ll find some nice, catchy short memes.
– I’ve noticed over the years, though, and I’d be curious what your experience is with this too again because there’s so many different fields and parts of the mind, conscious, subconscious, all these things. A lot of it happens in layers, or like a seed gets planted, and then someone might not realize they actually are. They might not be consciously simmering on something, but reminds me of that Pam. I think her name was Pam Grout had all these books about little energy, practices, and tools to get people aware of energy many years ago. it was E squared. And it was truly, once you bring your awareness to something, you know it now, whether you consciously remember it, or it can access it or not. So it’s, like, now you will notice these things more. ‘Cause I love energy work, I’m always so fascinated by, “Well, what if we keep planting the same seeds.” And that’s something I try to do. I talk about a lot of the same stuff over and over again. I just use different words. So maybe it could land in a different way for someone any given day.
– And that’s a sign, I think, that you’re in your master and your own genius so that you can keep speaking about the same thing while being engaged, and energized, and magnetic around that expression. And that’s something to so be celebrated. And it also makes sense, I feel, in this field of embodiment because if we are constantly, like I identify as somebody who feels like I’m always searching for more. I yearn for like this concept of more, but not more stuff, or more holidays, like more of this out. My yearning for more is more of in and deeper down. So it’s all the same practices and all the same principles. And it’s just layer after layer of depth, which can be at risk of becoming really narcissistic. But as long as we are also taking good action out in the three dimensional world, I think is also, like, for me, I just feel so great that this concept of the feminine and this concept of embodiment, which were words that I didn’t even choose to go looking for. They kind of just found me in some way. I’m just so eternally grateful that that came to my doorstep because like you, I share a lot of the same concepts and have been doing for multiple, multiple years. And I don’t get bored with them. Yeah. I’m just feeling that and it just feels really nice to reflect on.
– Right. I remember. Do you know Adrienne Maree Brown is?
– Yeah. For sure, yes.
– I interviewed her a couple years ago, and I remember one of the things she said was just that one of the greatest blessings in her life was to be able to do work that she really enjoys that she’s really good at.
– And I was, like, “Yes.” And I think you’re touching on just one of the things that I enjoy so much about this work ’cause we can’t get bored. There’s always more because it’s so complex, like the body is a freaking miracle, but it’s also so complex. At the time that we were recording this, it’s February 8th. And I just released a podcast yesterday about my experience in the beginning of the year of having to go to the emergency room, get my gallbladder removed and all that. And the only other time in my life I’d ever had surgery, I was 21 years old, and I did not have this relationship to the divine or my body yet. And to have the experience, I did a lot of reflecting back on what was the experience and just literally how many things I wasn’t even aware of when I was 21 years old, and just like how the little intricate, little nuances of every single freaking tiny little thing I was experiencing every day were blowing my mind this year.
– So beautiful.
– It’s hilarious.
– Well, and I’m-
– Go ahead.
– I was just gonna say it’s hilarious and it may be a little bit wistful of me, but just imagine if everyone was doing that. That’s what I would really love if everyone was just doing that.
– Yeah. This is why I love talking to other embodied. I feel like we need so many different embodiment practitioners, different flavors, different approach. For whatever is gonna resonate for someone at whatever point they are in their journey, we need it. We need it. And I really do. I look at a lot of, like, the shitty, shitty things that happen the world. And I’m, like, “If people were embodied, they wouldn’t be able to even stomach a lot of the choices that lead to a lot of the shitty, shitty things that we’re having to deal with now.”
– Yeah, it’s interesting. The more I have been connected to my body, the more political I have become, the more aware of so, so, so many different issues. I think that’s also a reflection of the times I feel. And it is more imperative given that we are on a very serious trajectory. We have been for a long time, and things are not improving fast enough, particularly regarding the climate crisis. So it feels natural to me and obvious that in my belief system is that in some way, earth or this concept of the divine or the feminine is literally shaking more and more of us awake because it’s actually in the human races. Like, if we wanna continue as a race, it’s getting to a point whereby we all need to be more awake to this. But the more and more that I’ve practiced embodiment, the clearer, and more educated, and more interested, and more discerning I have been with my views from everything from immigration policy through to climate change, through to diversity, and equity, and like datadatada, everything. I feel like it just makes us better people all around. And that’s not to say you have to be connected perfectly to your body 100% of the time because I’m not. I’m up in my head all the time, but there’s a strength and a skill of knowing and being able to sense and discern when I’m avoiding being in my body, when I need to get back in there. And it’s not that I’m like some guru that does it 24/7 because I’m not. Like, in praising embodiment, I also don’t want to shame or gaslight somebody who feels like they’re not embodied enough.
– Like, all of us are on a journey back towards doing more of that. But I genuinely feel like I love embodiment because it makes me a better human and that’s why I wanna do more of it, makes me better human in the way I spend my time and the way I spend my money.
– Yeah. You’ve used one of my favorite words so many times, and we can’t teach embodiment without using it all the time but discernment.
– Do you have any kinda working definition? How would you describe discernment?
– Hmm, I don’t know. Let me contemplate that for a moment. What arises for me is there is no universal one truth. Depending on where you’re standing and your lived experience, and your body’s capacity, everyone is gonna hold a different truth in relationship to an experience, or an opportunity, or a decision, or a situation. There is no one who can tell you what is right and who can tell you what is wrong, although some people’s bodies absolutely will hold more wisdom than yours. And certainly, there are situations to defer to others’ experience as a way for you to learn. But with that said, discernment is about the ability to know what your truth in any situation is. And your truth may not be the most politically correct. It may not be the most sophisticated because our bodies have been internalizing the dominant culture for so many centuries that all of us have internal misogynistic, white supremist, datadatada things that I feel like a lot of the times, we can come to our truth, and we might feel so clear that it is our truth. And then in three years time, we have a totally different truth because we’re holding a different perspective because we know our body to a deeper level of intimacy. That’s been true. When I look back on some of the blogs I wrote 10 years ago, I wanna vomit a little bit in my mouth. So you’re allowed to grow and evolve. But when I think about discernment, I’m fit what really arises for me. My working definition is discernment is not about who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s about your purest sense of what’s true sincerely for you.
– I love that. I’m laughing because I self-published a book in 2015, and people are always, like, “Why don’t you ever talk about your book?” And I’m, like, “Because I hate it.” Even a year later, I’m like, “Man, I don’t who the person was that wrote that book.” Like, there’s still useful things in it, people still buy it, which is great, but I’m just, like, “Let’s not talk about. I’m getting my website updated a little bit right now.” And she’s, like, “Do you wanna put your book in your shop?” And I’m like, “Nope.”
– I understand that. If I had written a book in 2015, I would probably not agree about 50% of what would be in there.
– I know. Yeah, discernment, this is something I love geeking out on. One of the things I’ve been saying for years is just distinguishing between judgment and discernment, and how judgment happens in the minds, and requires putting value on things, right? Like, this is better than that, dadatdada. And discernment is just yes or no. Is this for you or is this not for you? Just like in like the very simplistic terms. Is this for me or is this not for me? And it’s based more on body wisdom, right? Because sometimes we don’t know why. And if you try to explain your discernment, your yes, and your nos, or your truth, and that’s literally, that’s what I’ve had for so many years around this, a yes, no, truth practice. Like, is this a yes or is this a no for me? Or is it like true, not true? Something wanna move towards or not? And those things like are so visceral, not necessarily, once we get into evaluating it with the mind, then we’re judging.
– And that makes a lot of sense because when you speak about judgment, your hand, if you’re listening to the audio, you won’t know this, but your hand literally moved out and away from your head as if there was this externalization. And then when you spoke about discernment, there was a lot more of the pointing towards your heart, which was this real concept of I. And it’s really interesting ’cause when you think about judgment, it’s like you spoke about yes or bad. Judgment is really a way for us to, I feel, just take this concept of hierarchies, which we’ve all been like subjugated to, “This is better than that. Rational is better than emotional. Intellectual is better than intuitive. Not bleeding is better than bleeding,” Speaking or referencing women’s menstrual cycles. “Being cool-headed is better than being ‘hysterical’.” All of these different ideas of hierarchies are what create better and worse. I think if we wanna move into our body, then we naturally have to move away from any hierarchy that says good or bad. Any hierarchy that says good or bad is not of the body because the body isn’t good or bad, it’s not sinful or not sinful. And again, I know I’m speaking to you and I’m reaching to the converted. But I see a real relationship between judgment and hierarchy. And hierarchy is a system of patriarchy, which wants us to have an orientation of something being better, or more valuable than something else. And in that sense, I just feel like when we are in a space of judgment rather than discernment, we’re actually judging not necessarily based on what our truth is, but on just, like, the soup that we’re in.
– It’s not really, like, you’re doing that process of judgment through your body. But is that even your value system? I don’t know. Let me give you an example.
– Oh please.
– Like wearing a bra. Okay, so I was not wearing a bra today. My father-in-law came over, and I had to lift something and I was, like, “Oh, is he gonna see that I’m not wearing a bra? And is this gonna be an issue?” And I was a bit self-conscious about it in the moment because I don’t know how I feel about this. And so I’ve got all this, like, “Is it okay? Do I feel a bit shamed? Is this awkward?” He probably did not even notice or care, but I’ve got all of these judgements that I’m placing on myself, not because I have an issue with my boobs, but because society has told me this is what’s good and this is what’s bad. This is the shape your boobs should be. And this is the way that you should control them. And if you’re not doing those things, then you have a problem. And I was just noticing, I was, like, “This is so screwed up. Like, all these judgements, is this okay?” This is not even how I wanna feel about my body, but I didn’t actually get a choice about what society told me in terms of how I should relate to my boobs. I’ve seen you share about this on social media with your boob as well, so.
– I love talking about titties. Same though. I rarely wear a bra. One of the things I love the most about Miami is I blend here. Everyone’s titties and ass cheeks are hanging out here. It is the best. Like, so many different shapes and sizes, real, fake, you know, whatever. But it’s just so much more common that people are a bit more free with at least how much of their body is showing. I don’t know how they feel about it, but I also notice this depending on where I am. Am I gonna walk around in New York City without a bra on? Probably not because I’m just not in the mood for the volume of attention or comments that would come. And it’s not even a function of being attractive or not, whatever the fuck means anyway, but it’s just you get the gaze. But when I’m home with my family, I will put on bra before I go downstairs ’cause it’s, like, “I don’t need to be around my parents or my brother without a bra on.” But that too. Meanwhile, many years ago, I went to this place in Oregon called Breitenbush. It was this hot spring. I love hot springs. And I literally went to one of the hot tubs, and there was a mom, dad, and their pre-teen daughter just chilling naked in the hot tub. And I was like, “Wow, there’s probably nothing. My family would be less likely to do together than this.” And I noticed my mind wanting to think it was wrong or inappropriate, that freaking label. But instead, I was just like in awe and I’m, like, “I wanna know everything about these people that they’re super fucking comfortable with this.”
– But I obviously didn’t ask them ’cause who wants to like other people or make them feel weird? You know what I mean? So I was, like, “I gotta mind my business, but I’m so curious now.”
– They were probably from Sweden, playing really cool with nudity up there. I love it about them.
– I remember the first time actually I was in Europe. My uncle was stationed in the army in Germany when I was young. I was probably 12. We went to Holland, actually. And we went to this indoor pool. And I remember being in the locker room or something, people are just naked and no one was making… I remember even as a 12-year-old noticing that not a single woman was making any attempts to cover up their naked body. And I just thought that was so weird ’cause that is so not the culture in America.
– Nor Australia.
– It’s really something.
– Don’t think it helps us to be very embodied.
– No. Meanwhile, come to find out after three whole months of living in Miami that you could be topless on the beach here.
– Ooh, that’s fun. Ah, just the idea of sun on all of your body and all of your being almost all.
– Yeah. So amazing. You should be getting into that.
– Well, related though.
– If you want to. I do. Well, I do notice, though, a difference. If I’m by myself, I’m less likely. If I’m with girlfriends, I’m more likely ’cause there’s just something about not… It just feels safer to me.
– I can totally appreciate that it would feel safer. When I’m with girlfriends in a remote beach in Australia, they’re often the first to suggest it, like, “Oh, there’s no one else on the beach,” which ’cause I don’t know if it’s legal or not in Australia. So often, you would just do it when I think it may not be legal. Don’t quote me.
– My girlfriends are often the first to suggest it. And then I’m the one that follows along, like, “Oh I didn’t actually think of it, but yes, of course, I would want to.” Yeah.
– I think sun on titties probably solves more things than we would think it would.
– One of my girlfriends is also the queen of yoni bathing. She’s really into yoni bathing. And anytime we’re on this, you do really need a very private beach for, which is possible in Australia. You really need to make sure no one else is on the beach if you’re gonna be laying back for some sun there.
– I was following. I started following. I only lasted a couple of days. Some Instagram account recently that’s, like, I don’t even remember the name of it, but it’s one of these like anonymous accounts and you can’t tell is he kidding? Is he not kidding? But it’s like this carnivalious or something like this. Some guy that’s basically, like, “You need to drink better water. Eat meat, eat fruit, and sun your butt hole.”
– Those are his things. Those are his health pillars. Like, you need to get more sun in your butt hole. Listen and I don’t know. I’m sure there’s science to support it, but it’s just hilarious to me. That’s just like the good water, meat, fruit, sun your butt hole.
– It’s not where I was expecting you to go with that.
– That’s what I love about it so much. Okay. Last thing I wanna ask you. So you have a toddler, right?
– I do. I have a two and bit-your-old daughter.
– And how are you if you are kind of sprinkling the seeds, or imparting embodiment, or encouraging? ‘Cause I’m always so amazed. I have a niece, she’ll be four in June. So three and a half. And that they just are so naturally this way.
– Mm-hmm. I totally hear you. There’s so much I could say on this topic. But to be specific and concise, my little one, her name’s Cleo, she is the most embodied human. She’s so expressive of everything. And in the moment, she’s also a very slow little person. She really wants to savor what she’s eating or getting dressed. I’m like, “Dude, we’ve got a deadline. We should have been out the door half an hour ago.” So two of the big things that I do are really to, the first is to try and get more on her timeline.
– So my timeline has been hijacked by the hyper-productive world of we need to get somewhere and do something, but she’s a little person. She doesn’t need to be productive. And my key role as a mother when I’m in that time with her as her primary caregiver ’cause I don’t primary caregive for her every… I also work obviously, is to get on her timeline and to lose my rush. So that’s actually something I have to do to support her embodiment, or rather to not contaminate her with the overflow of what my body has ingested. The second one is to really check my language when it comes to expressing her emotions. So she’s got this habit of, like, right now, she’s expressing anger. She sometimes wants to push me, or hit my leg, or she wants to have a tantrum, or she wants to say, “Go away, mama. I am angry.” And I have to really check with myself with a lot of this language of saying, like, “Oh, that’s not nice.” Or, “Let’s be happy.” I’m probably not giving the most relatable examples, but I find in those moments but-
– So let’s be nice. So that’s not nice,
– I think, is
– That was not nice.
– one of the biggest
– Yeah, that’s a common one. In Netherlands, it’s like So, like, that’s not nice in Dutch. There’s all kinds of variants of actively encouraging them, I find as parents, to not express fully what’s being expressed, or to redivert and distract them. And actually, as an embodiment practitioner, what I would rather she do is actually… I am so happy with her expressing her fullest intensity in that moment, but making sure that it’s just channeled in an appropriate way. So no, you cannot bash the glass of the screen door because you may hurt yourself, but here is a soft toy that you can bash. No, you cannot hit mama because that’s mean to mama’s feelings, but here’s this thing that you can go and be a bit rough with. So it’s like being really mindful of my language and then redirecting her to… And also to demonstrate through my body how is it that you might express that intense emotion in a safe and appropriate way? So that you can do that as a child and so then as an adult, I’m an adult, who for ages had trouble accessing my anger because that’s not nice.
– We don’t have time for that. And it becomes really challenging for us to actually relate to our anger in healthy ways. So she already has a healthy way. And so my job is to just try to interfere with that as minimally as possible and just to redirect it when the opportunity arises.
– I love the word redirect to an appropriate. And your description of appropriate is not based in dominant culture or anything like that. It’s based in this is just safer and more considered it for everyone’s health and safety in this moment.
– Yeah. Like, if you’re playing with another little kid, you can’t be hitting other little people in the playground, but you can come over here, and you can bash on the sand, and dig your sticks real hard. And that’s fine. And I’ll use language, like, “It’s okay to be angry. Let’s let our angry out.
– So okay. Let’s let that out. That’s fine.”
– I love that. I was recently listening to Lenny Kravitz’s memoir. His mom was an actress who later in his life ended up being a famous actress. And I forget what she named the character, but she had this way of… There was like a little code word or sound or something. I forget what it was. And when she could tell as a kid, especially when he was young, that he was having feelings, that he was having trouble expressing, she transformed herself into this other character with a whole other voice that he could just tell about his feelings. And it was just so cool. I was, like, “What a great idea.” Because a little kid who might be afraid that they will get in trouble if it’s their mom or their dad or whatever. But what I’m also hearing you say is cultivating this environment in your family where she would never get in trouble for that.
– No, no. And then it’s really interesting when she’s done something really naughty and she does have to get in trouble because, okay, then how do you parent that without shaming her?
– Yeah. There’s so many. I’m not a guru in this area. I’m still figuring it out.
– But who is? Even people who are. Kids are so different and individual. And again, like we were saying earlier, we keep talking about all the factors, but it’s like everything has an ecosystem.
– I love that. I love as much as I don’t want my own kids, so many of my students and clients have kids, and I have a little niece now. So many of my friends have kids. I’m just so fascinated. Like, I can’t wait to watch my friends’ kids grow up because we are all so different from our parents. We have access. We’ve done so much more healing. So I’m, like, “What are these kids gonna be like? I can’t wait.” I can. I don’t wanna rush your kids, but I’m so excited. It’s just so different. And I think it’s liberating.
– And they have a whole different set of, I think, challenges that they’re going to face. For example, my two-year-old to her face masks and hand washing have been around since she was pretty much like a tiny little baby. It’s just second nature that we would get in the car after going and doing the supermarket and sanitize our hands. So she just has grown up in this world where there is this separation from other people, physical separation. Don’t kiss your grandparents at the moment, or this month, or this year.
– And then when we think about climate, she’s gonna grow up with a totally different narrative around the climate. And to me, this is also one of the factors that I’m just so passionate about embodiment generally because I really want to, I keep going back to this concepts, I really want to leave a beautiful planet, feel and rich with actual living ecosystems that she can enjoy.
– And when I think about the beautiful Sunshine Coast that I live on, in 40 years, when she’s coming closer to my age, it’s not gonna be like it is now. It’s gonna be four to five degrees on average hotter. The oceans are gonna be, don’t quote me, but it’s about 20 centimeter. No, 20 centimeters? I can’t. I need to check that fact. But the oceans, they are gonna be higher. It won’t be a subtropical climate anymore. It’ll be more considered a equinox tropical climate. Things are gonna be so different in their future so quickly.
– That’s just a whole heap set of challenges. When I think about how much eco stress I have, and then there’s these little people that are growing up, knowing that the world’s on fire, I just think about how much stress a pandemic has caused for us as humans, and children are growing up in that. And they’re growing up in a place where the adults around them are committing ecocide. These little people are gonna need to be so resourced.
– Yeah, yeah. And then I also always think about the implication of all the digital like social media, which is whew.
– Whole Conversation for another day. We are gonna put your links, everything on the Show Notes page. Thank you so much. And there’s resources on Jenna’s site if you wanna download. I know she has some magnetism practices on her website, other things. You have a podcast. You have social media. We’ll make sure we link to everything. Thank you so much. I knew this is gonna be such a fun, geeky conversation. And geek to me is like a very high compliment. If I could really nerd out with someone, I’m so excited.
– DiAlto, Elizabeth, thank you.
– Thank you, we’ll talk to you later.