Today, Trudi Lebrón, author of The Antiracist Business Book, reminds us that hustle culture has too many people completely burnt out these days. Thinking that you have to constantly be “on” is doing a disservice to your mental, emotional, and physical health—and to your business.
There’s a difference between being “on” all the time and being ready. There’s a difference between hustling and being intentional.
When you are ready, when you stay ready, you can own your skills and step into your expertise.
In this episode, I’m chatting with my friend Trudi Lebrón about all things business. We’re deep diving into how to find joy in just being, the power of coaching and embodiment work, and the nuances of capitalism. It’s a conversation about making a true and lasting impact.
We also talk about her new book, The Antiracist Business Book, and why she chose to focus on business and the coaching industry. She also shares about her new professional development program, The Art and Science of Coaching.
The topics in this episode couldn’t be more relevant to where we are as a society, and I hope you’ll be able to apply some of these concepts and ideas to the growth of your own life and business (if you have one!).
In episode 402 of the Embodied Podcast we discuss:
- [03:15] How Trudi is finding the joy in just being and spending time with friends and family
- [06:36] How two people’s interpretations of encouragement can be very different
- [11:22] Trudi’s experience meeting Fatman Scoop and getting valuable business and sales advice
- [20:25] Being ready for opportunities that come your way
- [23:54] Why Trudi chose business and the coaching industry for the angle of her antiracist book
- [33:38] How the recent Patagonia sale embodies the concept of Just Commerce
- [40:50] Trudi’s belief in the power of coaching and business vs. coaching skills
- [46:03] Why Trudi created her new professional development program, The Art and Science of Coaching
- [50:33] How embodiment work can you help you both professionally and personally
Resources mentioned by Elizabeth in episode 402 “Antiracist Business and the Art and Science of Coaching with Trudi Lebrón”:
- The Art and Science of Coaching with Trudi Lebron
- Follow Trudi on Instagram
- Get Trudi’s book, The Antiracist Business Book
- October Wild Soul Flow class
- Fierce Love workshop
- Email us with questions or feedback
- Don’t miss an episode of The Embodied Podcast
Quotes from this Week’s Episode of the Embodied Podcast:
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Just Commerce is this concept for an economic system that is by nature capitalist and that has private ownership and all of those things, but that measures the health of the economy through this justice and equity centered lens. So we’re looking at not just employment, but also housing and education. [34:05] —Trudi
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Coaching skills are incredibly powerful to help people get out of their own way, take action on things that they want to take action on, shift their perspective on how they’re understanding themselves or the world, bring groups together, skills coaches can coach groups like teams and transform the relationships that they’re having and the way they work together and the progress that they make. It is incredibly, incredibly powerful. [41:27] —Trudi
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Something doesn’t need to be complex to be effective. In fact, often the simpler it is, the easier it is to digest and actually fucking do. And that in and of itself, doing things with people that they could actually do and digest is much more helpful than blowing people’s minds all the time. [49:35] —Elizabeth
How was this episode for you?
Was this episode helpful for you today? I’d love to know what quote or lesson touched your soul. Let me know in the comments below OR share the episode on Instagram, tag me your stories @elizabethdialto, or send me a DM!
About the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto
Since 2013 I’ve been developing a body of work that helps women embody self-love, healing, and wholeness. We do this by focusing on the four levels of consciousness – physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.
In practical terms, this looks like exploring tools and practices to help you tune into the deep wisdom of the body and the knowing of the heart, which I believe are gateways to our souls. Then we cultivate a new relationship with our minds that allows the mind to serve this wisdom and knowledge and soul connection, rather than override it, which is what many of us were taught.
If you’ve been doing self-help or spiritual development work for a while, these are the types of foundational things that often people overlook in pursuit of fancier concepts that often aren’t practical or sustainable. Here, we will focus on building these strong foundations so you can honestly and thoroughly embody self-love. If you’re feeling it, subscribe to the show, and leave us a review wherever you listen from. You can also keep up with show updates and community discussion on Instagram here.
Transcript for Episode 402 “Antiracist Business and the Art and Science of Coaching with Trudi Lebrón“:
Elizabeth Dialto:
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto, where we’re always questioning systems, programming, and conditioning, and exploring the truths within us and around us in a way that enables us to contribute to collective healing, joy, and liberation. Everything we talk about here is meant to illuminate, inspire, and integrate the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual aspects of life, so that we can untame our wild souls, harness the power of our sacred bodies, and be the fierce, loving, and mystical beings we came here to be. This podcast has been around since 2015.
We have over three million downloads, listeners all over the world, and I just love you all so much. Even if you’re brand new, I love you and I thank you and I appreciate you for being here with me, being here with our guests, for giving us your time. As a reminder, one of the other things I’m always out to cultivate here through the podcast are critical thinking skills and curious listening skills. So, keep your heart open, keep your mind open, stay curious, stay humble. Remember, you don’t have to agree with everything. Pay attention for what resonates for you, what lands for you, what works for you, and feel free to go ahead and ditch anything that doesn’t.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode number 402 of the Embodied Podcast with Elizabeth DiAlto. I am your host, Elizabeth DiAlto, and today our guest is one of my nearest and dearest. She’s also a returning guest. Mrs. actually, I went to her wedding earlier this year, Trudi Lebron. Trudi is an executive coach for anti-racist entrepreneurs and leaders. She is a social innovator, a writer. She’s the author of The Antiracist Business Book, the founder of the Institute for Equity Centered Coaching, the co-host of That’s Not How That Works Podcast.
She also has an upcoming amazing experience, the Art and Science of Coaching, which you can find out more about at untameyourself.com/coaching. I love Trudi so much. It’s always an amazing conversation when Trudi comes on the show. I hope you all enjoy this thoroughly. As well, our show notes for this episode could be found at untameyourself.com/402 for any other links that we mentioned throughout the course of the show. Let’s get into it.
All right, everybody. One of my nearest and dearest is back on podcast. I think this is your third visit, right?
Trudi Lebron:
Is this my third?
Elizabeth Dialto:
It might be.
Trudi Lebron:
Oh, my God. I thought it was the second, but maybe it’s the third.
Elizabeth Dialto:
It could be. I don’t know. I lose track. I’ve been doing this shift for a long time. Anyway, I’m so excited to have you here. We already did an intro so they know who you are, but the opening question. So, this is the first interview I’m actually doing back from summer break in September of 2022. This won’t be out until a little bit into October. So, by the time people are listening, we’re into the fall. It’ll be after your birthday. The question I’m asking people this season is, what is currently bringing you the most joy?
Trudi Lebron:
What is currently bringing me the most joy? I am in a practice right now of really finding space to just be, not to do anything, but just to be. Because what has happened as I’ve been on this journey in this practice is that when you make this space to just be, you arrive to that space and it’s not full of stuff to do and then you can really do what you want to do or what needs to be done or what you’re feeling really called for. But if you’re always overscheduled, you just always feel like you’re hustling, right? So what’s bringing me joy is finding time to just be and really investing that time with friends and family.
So, I’ve been trying to be more intentional about reaching out to friends, saying, “What’s up?”, just getting together for dinner, visiting, right? I’m going to come and see you in a couple weeks and hang out. I don’t really have a purpose to come. I just want to come and spend that time. So, I’m trying to be more intentional about that. I’ve had some really fascinating conversations with my husband over the last couple weeks, because I am finding that time to just be. So, I’m finding a lot of joy in the practice, in doing it, but also in practicing it.
Elizabeth Dialto:
So I know you’re not a big personalize sharer, but if there’s anything you do feel like sharing, how is Tito responding to the practice? Tito is Trudi’s husband for everyone listening.
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah. So, it’s cool. I think that he’s appreciating it. I’m happy to share. I feel like I don’t get asked. I wish people would ask me more personal questions actually.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Listen, do not.
Trudi Lebron:
We can spend all the time. We can do it. I think because my work is so focused on things that are so serious that I spent a lot of time talking about those things and just less about me.
Elizabeth Dialto:
But also not everyone is your homegirl and doesn’t know actually what to ask you.
Trudi Lebron:
That’s true.
Elizabeth Dialto:
I do.
Trudi Lebron:
That is very true. True, true, true. So, he is actually someone who had pointed out to me that I had been overworking. Even though I felt like I wasn’t, even in the times that I wasn’t necessarily working, I was still full of things to be doing. So, he really called me into awareness about that. It’s funny because we’ve been together for 17 years and we just got married this year in March.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Best wedding ever.
Trudi Lebron:
It was so much fun.
Elizabeth Dialto:
It was so fun.
Trudi Lebron:
It’s different. It’s different. Both of us are showing up different in the marriage. So, we’re making more time to be communicative and I’m really learning a lot of things about it, even after all this time. Actually, can I share one?
Elizabeth Dialto:
Please, please do.
Trudi Lebron:
Okay. If you date men, take note to what I’m about to say, because this right here is mind blowing. So, for a while now, when he is feeling anxious and we’re getting on each other’s nerves, which happens in all relationships, he would say to me that he didn’t feel like I was encouraging him enough. I think that I am one of the most encouraging people. So, whenever people have ideas, I’m always like, “Yeah, let’s do it. How can I help?” But I’m always willing to strategize and whatever. So, when he said this to me most recently, something in my brain, because I’m in this practice, clicked. Instead of saying what I usually say, which is like, “What are you talking about? I’m always encouraging you.” That’s my normal response.
I stopped and I was like, “Tell me what you mean when you say that, because I am trying and it’s important to me that you feel like I encourage you in the way that you want to be encouraged.” So tell me what you mean. So, that is a new response from me. In the past when I have said to him, “Oh, I’m encouraging,” he’s like, “Well, I don’t think you are and you should know.” So because we’re both showing up different, I asked this new question, “Tell me what you mean.” He answered it. What he said was, “Well, you don’t tell me what to do.” I was like, “What?” He was like, “Yeah, I’ll tell you my ideas. Yes, you are encouraging about the ideas, but you don’t press me about it. You don’t follow up with me and say, ‘Did you go to the gym or did you do that?'” I was like, “Wait a minute.”
Elizabeth Dialto:
Time out. Is this man asking to be nagged?
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah. Oh, my God. I said to him, “You’re right. I never do that because I am not a nagging wife or partner. That is never what I wanted. So, you’re right, I do not do that. But if that is what you believe encouragement is, I got you. I can tell you what to do.” He looks at me and he is like, “You have to understand that as a man, I want you, my wife, to be happy. I want to do what you tell me to do.” Elizabeth, it was the most fascinating, most insightful thing, because for years, he’s been telling me I don’t encourage him and this is what he means. That’s just his language for describing it. I could have gotten an argument over saying like, “Well, that’s not what encouragement means,” but of course, that’s not what I did. That’s not the point. It was fascinating.
Elizabeth Dialto:
So reviewing the lesson, please everyone don’t take this as go home and start telling your partner what to do. The lesson is ask your partner what they need. When they say it, what does that mean? What does that look like for you? Because their interpretation of it might be way different than yours.
Trudi Lebron:
Yes. Fascinating. Life changing stuff is happening over here.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Okay. So, have you started bossing Tito around or what?
Trudi Lebron:
Yes, I have. Let me tell you, he does what I asked him to do. Are you telling me that for 17 years all, maybe it would’ve been different? I don’t know if it’s different now because I don’t know who it could be. I do feel energetically that there is a difference in the house and the relationship. Yeah, but you all, just ask people. When they’re telling you you’re not showing up a certain way and you think you are, just resist the urge to defend yourself and just ask, “What do you mean? What do you need?” And then you get to decide if what they’re asking is something that you can agree to.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Yes, yes, of course. I love that. So, staying on the topic of Tito, you made this post on Instagram just yesterday. You all were at the WNBA game.
Trudi Lebron:
It’s the finals.
Elizabeth Dialto:
I’m sorry?
Trudi Lebron:
The championship. We were at the championship.
Elizabeth Dialto:
You were at the championship game, excuse me. You had this whole experience. I want you to tell this story that you told on Instagram because I loved it. It really segues into other stuff we’re going to talk about today.
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah. So, we’re at the WNBA game, the finals. We watch our team lose. It’s okay, next season. As we’re leaving, we’re going up the escalator, we see Fatman Scoop who was the halftime performer. If you don’t know who Fatman Scoop is, he is basically a hip hop legend. He has done all the major remixes for all major hip hop and R&B artists. He’s a promoter, a DJ, an artist on his own. He’s just everywhere. So, Tito, who has worked in the industry previously for a long time, knew that they had met before years ago and he knows that they have a lot of mutual friends. So, he went over to say hello, introduce himself. That’s a normal thing. Tito has never met a stranger.
Elizabeth Dialto:
When I was reading your post and you said, “My husband who has never met a stranger,” I’m a born witness to this. It’s just so true.
Trudi Lebron:
It’s just so serious. So, he goes over, starts talking with him, strikes up this conversation. And then as he is getting ready to leave, it dawns on Tito that he should mention the book, The Antiracist Business Book. So, Fatman Scoop was about to walk away or is walking away and Tito’s like, “Oh, actually, hold on, one more second. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this question.” And then he turns me and he goes, “My wife is a published author.” I immediately am like, “Oh, here we go.” I start to get red in the face, not because I’m embarrassed. Not at all. Tito is my absolute biggest fan and has been. For me though, if I’m not in work mode, it’s just a little bit hard for me. I am an introvert. I know it’s hard for people to understand that sometimes, but I am an introvert.
So, when I’m not in work mode, I’m not at the ready to talk about my book or talk about my work or just chit chat, small talk. It’s not natural to me. If I’m in work mode, I’m on and it doesn’t faze me. It’s like an alternate ego or something like that. So, anyway, he’s like, “No, we’re going to talk to this dude.” So he stops him, starts talking to him about the book. Fatman Scoop invites us to sit down with him. He’s like, “Let’s have a seat right here. Let’s talk. I have a few minutes.” Super generous, very nice. So, he is talking to Tito for a good 5 to 10 minutes about who they know and their mutual friends and the book and how should we approach to get in this book on some of the major hip hop radio stations. My wife’s just so humble, blah, blah, blah.
So, at some point in the conversation, he just cuts off my husband. He’s like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute.” He looks me dead in the face and says, “Why is he…” And he points at Tito and he says, “… telling me about your book?” and points at me. He is like, “Your book.” I was like, “I did not know.” I wasn’t ready because I was just letting Tito do his thing, which is what he does. I wasn’t on. Anyway, I get this whole hip hop legend lecture about no matter how much money we throw to promoters or public relation firm or whoever, that no one can go harder for you than you. If that’s what you expect, you’re not going to get to where you want to get to.
I swear to God, the younger Trudi, the 14, 15-year-old Trudi was ready to be like, “Bro, you don’t know me. What are you talking about? I go hard. I got up 15,000 followers on Instagram. You don’t know? I’m out here. I got a podcast. What are you talking about?” The defiant.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Yeah, of course. Don’t tell me I’m not working hard enough, because that’s what it feels like. But this is about the post, you were making the distinction between hustle culture and going hard for yourself. What’s the difference?
Trudi Lebron:
That’s the difference. So, I heard him, and of course, I’m like… I’m a hip hop head. I’m also very aware that I’m talking to you, someone who knows what he’s talking about. So, I resisted the urge to defend myself.
Elizabeth Dialto:
There’s a theme. Here’s a theme, Trudi.
Trudi Lebron:
The theme for today, resisting the urge to defend yourself and just listening. I was like, “Yo, he’s right. He don’t know who I am. He don’t know who I am. He don’t care about me and Weeze’s podcast. He don’t care. This dude don’t know nothing.” So he starts asking me questions about the book and now I’m frustrated, not frustrated in a bad way, but my brain isn’t working. So, I’m just like, “Oh, I’m not ready yet.” But he had a lot of great points, even though I think that I have done a whole bunch and I have done an incredible amount of work. What that conversation allowed me to really wrap my head around was this proportion of effort and impact.
If I’m cool with just having the company that I have right now and the platform I have right now, I can just keep doing what I’m doing, but that’s not the goal. I want to make so much more impact. I have so many more dreams. If I’m going to ever accomplish those things, I do have to go harder, because what gets you here won’t get you there. So, at the end of that post, I did say, I was like, “Look, this isn’t about hustle all the time. It’s just about recognizing that you have to be realistic about what you want out of life and the effort that you’re putting in and making sure that those things are in alignment.”
It’s a little bit of a wakeup call. The other part of it that was a wakeup call is that I was talking to someone who was extremely connected and ended up giving us a lot of really great advice, but what if I had been ready? What if I had a book in my bag? What would’ve happened differently or what if I’m always ready? Who knows who I’m meeting? What if I wasn’t as shy? So it was just a real insightful and fun experience. He took a picture.
When he left, he was like, “I expect to hear from you. Slide in my DMs.” And then I came home, I was like, “Fatman Scoop told me to slide in his DMs. We’re going to reach out.” He was like, “Tell me what happens. Tell me what you do.” So, people don’t have to do that. I’m sure there was 100 people who would’ve loved to have a little bit of his time on Sunday. So, I just feel really appreciative to have gotten some of it.
Elizabeth Dialto:
I love that. There’s so much. For people listening, take whatever you need from that story as always. For me, the thing that’s really striking me is staying ready and just always being ready and willing, right? Because I’m like you. If I’m out, if I’m living my life, I’ve had some real resistance to feeling like I need to be on all the time. You don’t need to be on.
There’s the difference between being on and being ready. I could flip the switch in a second if there’s a reason to. It’s funny because I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who just got some business cards and I was like, “Ooh, I haven’t had a business card in years.” Most people think, “Oh, whatever, just follow me on Instagram.” But she gave me the idea, put the little QR code on the back. Nothing’s had a bigger comeback during the pandemic than these fucking QR codes.
Trudi Lebron:
Seriously.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Just get the damn QR code, send people to your website. There’s no reason to not have that shit handy at all times. It doesn’t mean you have to work.
Trudi Lebron:
Right, it doesn’t. And then also ready for what? What are you getting ready for? I don’t remember where I heard this, but I remember a few years ago when I was getting serious about building a platform and even understanding what that was. Hearing someone talk about how everybody wants to get on Oprah, but if Oprah calls, are you even ready to be on Oprah? Do you even know? Not just ready to be on Oprah because you could just show up, talk to whoever, but are you ready for what happens on the other side of it?
Elizabeth Dialto:
That’s real.
Trudi Lebron:
Do you even know? Do you have the company that can fill the volume of attention? This is what happened to us in 2020, right? There was a moment in the world and in our industry specifically, we were able to show up for it and the team was ready to accept all of the things that came after that. But two years, if that would’ve happened in 2018 instead of 2020, we would not have been ready for that. So, what are you preparing for? What vision are you holding? What does that require of you? These are just things to consider.
Elizabeth Dialto:
I love that. I’ve been thinking about that recently, because this summer, I don’t know if I told you about this. Did I tell you that I shot an episode of a reality TV show?
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth Dialto:
The whole episode and I can’t say the name, I still don’t know when it’s coming out or whatever, but the whole episode is the main character and a couple members of her family coming to take my class and me teaching the class and working with them. The call came on Friday and we were shooting it on Monday. That is something that I’ve been thinking about ever since and I’m like, “Wow, so glad we redid the website in April. I’m so glad our offerings are clear. We know what we do. The business model is set. We have all the stuff in place.”
Trudi Lebron:
So for an influx of people. A bunch of people can show up and register for things and you don’t have to do a whole bunch extra.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Yeah, totally, or flounder around figuring it out. Okay. Antiracist Business Book, before we got on, you all, I asked Trudi, I’m like, “The book came out in the spring, so you’ve obviously done a lot of interviews about the book already.” I’m like, “What’s the stuff that people haven’t asked you that you’re like, ‘Damn, this is what I really want to talk about.'” So you all listening know I don’t usually plan episodes so much, but Trudi was like, “Ooh, I actually really want to talk about this and this and this.” So I have a couple of things. Of course, I love what she said. Trudi is one of my favorite thinkers that I know. I love the way Trudi thinks and looks at things and picks things apart and can do so calmly also, by the way.
Even if she’s heated and fired up and passionate about shit, Trudi has a lot of chill even about very serious stuff that she cares a lot about. I appreciate that because there’s a levelheadedness that Trudi brings that a lot of people who do the work that you do, do not, which makes it actually really hard to engage with what they’re doing. So, I think you do that better than actually most people. So, there’s a lot of general information out there about being an anti-racist. So, the question is, why did you choose business as your angle and specifically geared towards the coaching industry?
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah, so there’s a couple reasons. One is that there’s a whole lot of information about general. You could find out the history of racism anywhere and all of the civil rights movement initiatives and all of the things that came out of Jim Crow and the remnants of that in today’s society. There’s lots of people talking about that. I didn’t feel like it was necessary to cover that again with my own lens, but what I did feel it was extremely important to do is talk about how businesses have an opportunity to really transform how they do their work. In turn, the ripple effect of that is much deeper than what can happen on an individual level, one person changing their individual behavior to interact with people in their communities. That’s important.
There’s lots of people who train people about that, but there’s just not as much information and training and thinking happening actually about anti-racism and anti-oppression work in general in the context of business. I think that that happens for a couple reasons. I think that there’s a lot of people who are in the anti-oppression, anti-racism space in the industry, who are trained as social workers and activists and sociologists and these on the ground people. They’re not necessarily trained in business.
So, I don’t always see a fully formed critique of business from people who don’t necessarily know what it’s like to run a business or run a lot of teams. Also, I think that there’s this dismissal of business because people just don’t like it. They see business and capitalism and all the language about being in a corporate institution. They see that as the problem. So, it’s easy to just say, throw the whole thing in the trash, burn it all down. But then what? I mean if we burn it all down, what do we have left?
Elizabeth Dialto:
Also, that’s not going to happen.
Trudi Lebron:
It’s also not going to happen.
Elizabeth Dialto:
That’s one of the things that bothers me so much when I’m looking at who do I want to work with, who do I want to listen to? I’m like, “Are people talking about solutions that are actually applicable in the world we live in or are they just so enraged or whatever is the motivation that they just want to be like, ‘We need to do this and this,’ but that shit’s not going to happen?” We need the bite sized chunk. We need to engage with reality to get the results that we want. The reality is we’re not dismantling capitalism this year, probably in the next several decades.
Trudi Lebron:
I would argue that we don’t need to. My position and I will say for someone who does the work I do, this is probably an extreme view for me to say, “I don’t think that we need to dismantle capitalism.” I think that we need to certainly redefine it. We need to create better laws, better policies, better practices. But capitalism at its core is really just the ability to own a business privately and to make money and keep the profits. Our ability to have the businesses that we own and set our prices and live off of the profits and pay ourselves a salary and create jobs for other people, that is a function of capitalism. There are places where that wouldn’t happen, that it wouldn’t be so easy to just pick up and get started. The problem is that Amazon is also a function of capitalism.
So, the fact is that we use that word to mean way too much and it’s almost meaningless. So, a lot of people who just want to throw business in the trash or capitalism in the trash without really saying, “Well, what do we mean actually?” What do we mean when we say that? What are we actually trying to build? You just don’t get that. So, I wanted to do that deep thinking around capitalism, around how we use money, around how we hire people, how we lead teams. So, the book is basically both a set of ideas. I say in the book, this is not the perfect plan to equity.
What this is a lot of things that I know work in certain contexts, because I’ve tried them and I’ve been doing this for a long time. There’s a lot of ideas that are bigger than what I can do on my own. So, I lay those out, and hopefully, other people will join me in building things that are cool and liberatory. Also, to help people and to give people language for things that they’re feeling about business. Here’s the other reason why I like focusing on business. At the end of the day, we all interact with businesses.
Elizabeth Dialto:
All day, every day.
Trudi Lebron:
All the time. We are either purchasing things from companies, we work in companies, we own companies. We are complaining and bumping up against them even if we don’t want to. I need internet in my house. I am not thrilled with my options, but I need internet so I got to make that purchase. So, we are all interacting with businesses every day. So, because of that, I think that lever, the business lever is one of the biggest opportunities that we have to actually create an impact. If we can get more people doing business differently, that would touch workers, families of workers, consumers, communities in all these ways. So, I think that business provides us with a really good model, something to wrap our hands around to say, “Oh, we can try to fix this here.”
Elizabeth Dialto:
Yeah, I love this. Doing business in a different way, that’s transformational, that’s inclusive, that’s more equitable. Again, is there going to be a perfect way? No, but I think people don’t realize, especially people who don’t have any context for actually running a business, how the world would cease to function if there weren’t businesses. Also, people wouldn’t have jobs, people wouldn’t have livelihoods, people wouldn’t be able to support their families. So, I’m really with you and I can get caught up in the generalization of using the term capitalism for such a sweeping blanket the way a lot of people do.
It’s interesting because there’s just so many things that so many of us don’t actually know how they work, the complexity and the way things are interconnected. If we dismantled this one piece, how many other things would crumble that would actually be so detrimental to so many people? These are again, the critical thinking of it all that people don’t want to do.
People just want to feel like righteous about all the things they think are wrong, but actually finding solutions over time that are going to be uncomfortable and inconvenient I feel is the shit that that’s what you’re out here trying to help people do. I’m trying to help people do the internal work to have the courage to do shit like that. A lot of people ultimately, if they knew what they were really talking about, would also have to face their unwillingness to really do it.
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah, 100%. There’s a lot of sacrifices that we would have to make, just basic comforts and conveniences if we toss it all to the side. Now that doesn’t mean that I believe that people who make hundreds of millions of dollars and billions of dollars should be paying taxes. I mean some people are, but as a society in general, we’re not good at nuance for some reason.
You’re either anti-capitalist and hate it all, burn it down, or you’re capitalist and you believe that billionaires should be protected. That is so not the choice. So, there’s such a big range in between that where we should be exploring. The solutions are in between. That is what I know for sure. What I know for sure is that the solutions are in between. Yeah, they’re not in the you’re either this or that. That never is the case.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Never.
Trudi Lebron:
So the book is both a bunch of ideas and suggestions and also an invitation to explore that in between.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Yeah. Because this is in between, what do you think of the Patagonia guy recently?
Trudi Lebron:
Oh, I am so excited about that. I cannot even tell you.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Keep telling it.
Trudi Lebron:
I will tell you. I’m so excited to talk about it. I’m going to actually look at the case, build out a full case study, and talk about this more, because I think this is actually a perfect example of what I talk about in the book. One of the chapters of the book is called From Toxic Capitalism to Just Commerce. Just commerce is this concept for an economic system that is by nature capitalist and private ownership and all of those things, but that measures the health of the economy through this justice and equity centered lens.
So, we’re looking at not just employment but also housing and education. Andrew Yang also talks a lot about this in some of his work. We’re looking at ways of doing business that still allow people to earn money and own businesses and all the things, but there is just such a big way more significant reinvestment in injustice. Now, his name is escaping me. I read a post about it.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Me, too. While you’re talking, I’ll look it up.
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah, so basically, Patagonia, he has some great startup story. The podcast How I Built This-
Elizabeth Dialto:
Ryan Gellert, is that how you say it?
Trudi Lebron:
Is that his name?
Elizabeth Dialto:
Or maybe it’s owner. Keep going.
Trudi Lebron:
Anyway, so if you have a chance to check out his origin story, definitely-
Elizabeth Dialto:
It’s Yvon Chouinard.
Trudi Lebron:
Yvon Chouinard. That’s right. That’s the last name. Okay. So, basically, this is a multi-billion dollar company and the short story of it is that he basically put the company into a trust, which is different than putting your money in a trust. He put the company in a trust so that the company can continue to operate the way that it’s operating. Patagonia has some really progressive and what I would call equity centered business practices like worker ownership and payouts. They really take care of their employees. They’re known for this, right? They really take care of their customers. They make really good products.
So, they put the company in the trust so that the company will continue to operate as a for-profit institution the way that it has been, a privately owned for-profit, but the profit is no longer owned by Yvon Chouinard, the owner. It’s owned by the trust. The trust responsibility is to make sure that money goes into nonprofits that are working on climate change. So, that means that it’s the profit. So, after all the company bills are paid and all the staff is paid and everybody else, what is left, which in the case of Patagonia, is just a tremendous amount of money. Because it’s in a trust, that will now be indefinite for the life of the company. Billions of dollars are going to be reinvested into climate change.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Some CEO can’t come in and be like, “Sorry, we’re not doing this anymore.”
Trudi Lebron:
No, nope. You can’t do it, because the trust’s responsibility is to maintain ownership and to hire future CEOs. The responsibility of future CEOs will be to the trust, not to any private shareholders or anything like that. I will say that this is important, that the reason that that was an option is because it was a privately held company and not a publicly traded company.
Elizabeth Dialto:
It’s voted on by the owner.
Trudi Lebron:
Exactly. If it were publicly traded, this would probably not be possible, because the responsibility of a CEO to shareholders is shareholder interest. So, if a CEO makes a decision like this that is against shareholder interests and reduces their profits, the shareholders can actually sue the CEO and removes them and all these things. So, it’s because it was privately held. This can happen and this doesn’t have to just happen for billionaires. This is something that I have been trying to figure out if I can do for years now, trying to figure out how I can build a company to a point where it can be… I wasn’t necessarily thinking of trust but worker ownership or co-op or something, right? I am actively thinking about the company beyond me and what that looks like.
So, you don’t have to be a company that’s making billions of dollars a year, but if you have a profit margin that is significant enough that you want to be reinvesting it and redistributing that wealth and if you have a brand that can live beyond you as a person, this is something that can be set up. It’s extremely exciting and I really hope that there are people out here in the world who want me to help them set it up for themselves because I just think that this is something that can happen.
Elizabeth Dialto:
You know what? And then we could also just do our work and be like, “Thank God it’s contributing to more than just impacting the people that we work with.”
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Because why do we work this hard if it’s not going to be bigger than us?
Trudi Lebron:
Exactly.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Specifically, you and I were talking about this before I hit record and I am appreciating this conversation. My friend, Jill, was posting about this the other day too. It’s interesting and even for years, I’ve been having conversations about the coaching industry or the industrial complex that is coaching, health, and wellness. All of it merges together, but specifically, you were saying people are abandoning the coaching industry. I’ve seen that, this dissatisfaction, which sucks when people feel like they have to abandon their craft.
Trudi Lebron:
I know.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Because it’s an industry has taken over and almost shamed a craft that can be an art. What is it called that you’re launching? You know I’m not good with names and shit.
Trudi Lebron:
The Art and Science of Coaching. I’m so excited about this.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Okay, so before you tell us about that, I want you to talk about why, because this is something I appreciate about Trudi too, because I’m less chill than you. I can get caught up and be like, “Yeah, fuck coaching!” You’re like, “Well…” I’m like, “Okay, tell me.” You love coaching and you’re an advocate for the power of it. Talk about that and then I want to hear about The Art and Science of Coaching. How was that born? Where did that come from?
Trudi Lebron:
Yeah, so all of this actually, even my deep dedication to coaching as a practice has lasted far longer than even this company. When I was working in nonprofits and doing a whole bunch of training in schools with youth workers, we were training educators in positive youth development strategies, which is essentially coaching. I had been doing this forever, because coaching skills, which are different than teaching skills or consulting skills or training skills, coaching skills are incredibly powerful to help people get out of their own way, take action on things that they want to take action on, shift their perspective on how they’re understanding themselves or the world, bring groups together.
Skills coaches can coach groups like teams and transform the relationships that they’re having and the way they work together and the progress that they make. It is incredibly powerful when it’s done correctly, because I’m an advocate for coaching, but I’m also a little bit snobby about it. I don’t like to just throw that label on whatever somebody’s just giving advice in general. No, skilled coaches can really, really advance progress in all kinds of things. So, I’ve done coaching for individuals, for teams, and for entire communities, where we’ve brought hundreds of people together to create community action plans. This stuff is really, really powerful. It’s not the business of coaching though. That is the skill, the science, the art of coaching.
The business of coaching, which spend any amount of time on Instagram or whatever social media platform if you’re in this world, what you will be tricked into believing is that being a coach is somehow all about building a coaching business, which is not the case at all. People are so overinvested in learning the business side. What is happening is we have a lot of people who I think would probably be really great coaches, but they’re turning into marketers and salespeople and business people, which you can do both, but they’re different skills. I have done it all. I have built a company. I have been a coach. Trust me, they are entirely different skills that you need to do them well.
Elizabeth Dialto:
This has been a pet peeve of mind for so many years, because those of us who actually do give a shit and are constantly honing and refining our skills, that gets eclipsed by the people who are obsessed with marketing and building their empires and making their millions and letting everybody know about their multi-seven figures or multi-six figures and their skills fucking blow. People are going through their shitty programs or working with them. They’re overcharging because charge your worth and blah, blah, blah. It’s so ego driven and it’s all about them. And then people aren’t getting served and then that’s people’s impression.
Trudi Lebron:
What people are doing are they’re building coaching businesses and they’re not trained as a coach.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Yeah, that’s shit. I think it’s funny because I know there wasn’t just one person, but the person I always want to blame for it is Brennan Bechard, because I’m pretty sure that was one of the first people out here who was like, “If you have a story, you’re a fucking expert.” I was like, “Calm down, Brennan Bechard.”
Trudi Lebron:
Fuck it all, walk around with the confidence of an average White dude.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Listen. But when you make a lot of money in this country, people want to pay attention to you. You have some authority.
Trudi Lebron:
I get that and I get there is value in learning from people who have done things that you haven’t done. That is true 100%. I’ve been in a lot of programs, a lot of masterminds. I can learn something from anywhere, but being honest about the difference between a business skill and a coaching skill and making sure that you know that those are not the same thing are incredibly important. Also, people are always trying to solve their business problems with marketing training and sales training. You all, that isn’t it. I mean sometimes that’s it, but often, it’s that you haven’t established yourself as an authority and expert in the skill and people just aren’t having the outcomes that they could be getting.
So, this is a big pet peeve of mine and I probably have a bunch of pet peeves. This is a major issue for me and I think that I really got fired up about it and wanted to create something that was more accessible because we trained coaches at the Institute for Equity Center Coaching. We have a coach certification program. We have a leadership certification program, but we have a lot of people who come into our coach certification and they’re like, “I’m not a coach. I’m not a coach.” They don’t even want to call themselves coaches because of all the crap associated with the coaching industry. I think that’s really unfortunate because coaching is extremely powerful. I have gotten to where I am today because of coaching.
A lot of those people weren’t necessarily trained coaches, but they were counselors and social workers and mentors, but they were using coaching skills that they had just naturally. If more people were trained in this skill, we’d be able to have… Even in our homes, a lot of the things that I was talking about when we started even in my relationship with Tito, right? It’s because I think a coach that I can slow down and be self-reflective about what I’m saying and what someone else is saying and ask questions in a certain way. These are skills that serve me all over the place in my life. So, we have our certification program that’s a longer commitment and more financially involved, but I want people to be able to access good coaching training.
So, The Art and Science of Coaching is a professional development program for coaches and leaders, anyone who builds containers or is a mentor or leads teams or anyone who’s in a position where they’re facilitating or supporting growth and transformations with others, which is so many of us. Then skills like how to create safe spaces for transformation and trauma-informed practice and the psychology of coaching, basic stuff that if you understood, it would really just allow you to show up way more intentionally with little deeper content knowledge, some real applicable skills. So, I’m really excited about launching that program.
Elizabeth Dialto:
I love that. It’s funny, because earlier today, I run an embodiment specialist training program. My women in this group, some of them are really in their heads about practicing and actually teaching. I was making a little fierce love post in our mighty network about getting out of your head and just practicing, because I was like, “Everybody has to start somewhere and please stop overcomplicating things.” That’s what I was watching. Their form of self-sabotage is they’re going to overcomplicate it and I’m like, “Focus on the basics.”
I’m like, “If all you ever did with these practices that I’m teaching you to facilitate is the basics, it would be so potent.” I see this in the coaching industry or even more the esoteric, more spiritual side of things where I play is something doesn’t need to be complex to be effective. In fact, often the simpler it is, the easier it is to digest and actually fucking do. That in and of itself, doing things with people that they could actually do and digest is much more helpful than blowing people’s minds all the time.
Trudi Lebron:
That’s what we have a lot of. We have a lot of showbusiness coaching going on. A lot of, “Look at me, going for the aha, going for the thing. I can’t believe you said that.” Those things, I get it, but I will say this, those moments, those aha moments or gem drops or challenging a client, those can be really effective if they’re strategic. What I see a lot of is that those kinds of techniques are used more for the benefit of the coach.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Exactly. So, then they could go write a fucking post about all these breakthroughs their clients are having because they work with them, rather than keeping the energy in the transformation. Obviously, pet peeve of mine. So, obviously, I’m always going to promote anything that Trudi does. So, if you want to learn more about The Art and Science of Coaching, we have a special link for you. You can go to untameyourself.com/coaching. I’m not one of these affiliate people who’s like, “And then there’s 75 fucking bonuses for you if you sign up with my link.”
But I will give you some embodiment tools and practices to go with that. So, if you sign up for that, we’ll know. Trudi will know. She’s tracking it and we’re going to send you some embodiment stuff to support you along the way, because this is something that I also firmly believe. Whether people are focusing on business, they’re focusing on their skills, doing both at the same time, like we were just talking about self-sabotage a little while ago, your own stuff needs to be dealt with if you’re going to be good at serving other people.
Trudi Lebron:
100%.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Because if not, you’re going to transfer your own shit, project your own shit onto other people. You’re going to be getting triggered by your clients. Again, that ego, a lot of the stuff that Trudi and I have been talking about, the ego stuff is going to get in the way. So, I have stuff to help you just make that easier for you, because no matter what, if you’re doing a coach skills training program, you’re going to face your own stuff. Embodiment tools and practice can help you do that with more ease and grace for sure.
So, I’m excited to help Trudi do this and share this, because I also believe in the power of coaching. I personally haven’t called myself a coach for many years, but so much of my work that I do is informed by those skills that I developed as well in different industries over the course of my career until I eventually moved into what I do now. So, that shit is really valuable.
Trudi Lebron:
It really is. It’s so valuable.
Elizabeth Dialto:
Anything I didn’t ask you, whether it’s about Art and Science of Coaching, about The Antiracist Business book, or just anything going on in your personal life that you feel like sharing in a place where people definitely want to know your personal business?
Trudi Lebron:
No, I think we covered. Well, I will invite people to definitely follow me on Instagram if you like this conversation. I have a lot more writing that I’m going to be doing. We’re doing some work to split the Institute for Equity Center Coaching and Trudi Lebron as a person and writer and creative. So, follow me on Instagram and we’ll be sharing more stuff, especially personal stuff. I’ll be doing more writing. So, definitely come along this journey.
Elizabeth Dialto:
I’m also glad to hear that you’re doing more specifically Trudi Lebron stuff, because you are so creative. Tell the people what else you did and what you studied and practiced in school. You’re a multi-hyphenate, multi-passionate, multi-creative person.
Trudi Lebron:
It’s very true. My degree is in theater. I trained as a vocalist and musician when I was a kid through my teen years. I thought I would be a hip hop star one day. That was my original dream. Yeah. I’m considering doing an MFA program in writing. I have all this creative energy that’s been bubbling up. So, we’re finding places to put that and make it available and just also invite other people, especially other entrepreneurs. We have a lot of entrepreneurs and leaders, serious business people in our community to be a model for that’s not all we are. We have these other things. So, one thing about me is as I’m learning, I try to be an example for other people to do the same.
Elizabeth Dialto:
I know Charmaine, you work closely with who’s heavily involved in [inaudible 00:54:39], super creative, artist, performer. You all, if I could again just encourage you, these are the types of people that you want to be learning from. You want to be learning from people who aren’t workaholics, who also honor their other passions and skills and have some work-life balance and aren’t just going to be, again, training you to want to just… It might be your own thing to have your own coaching business, your own coaching practice, or whatever.
Often people glamorize this, but what they do is then they build things for themselves that you might as well be working for the man to become a prisoner of your own creation. So, to work with the people who are the culture of the organization is not like that anyway is also I believe a big advantage for people who resonate with wanting to be a whole ass person and have a life and not just eat, sleep, work, repeat.
Trudi Lebron:
Right, be a whole ass person.
Elizabeth Dialto:
All right. I love you so much. I’ll see you next week. I can’t wait. Everybody listening, we’ll put links in the show notes. We’ll let you know where you can follow Trudi. Again, the link if you want to check out Art and Science of Coaching is going to be untameyourself.com/coaching. That’s it. Thank you so much. We’ll talk to you later.
All right, everybody. Thank you so, so much for tuning in to episode number 402 of the Embodied Podcast with our guest, Trudi Lebron. As a reminder, you can find the show notes at untameyourself.com/402. We always include links to everything we talked about on the show in the show notes page, as well as some quotes, a description, and other helpful information after you’ve listened to the episode, if you want to go check that stuff out. If you are listening here in real time, there’s a couple days left for you to get access to our October Wild Soul Flow Class, which we did this past Friday the seventh on the Aries full moon. That recording is available for the next 30 days. So, if you want to check that out, go to untameyourself.com/classes.
The next workshop we have coming up here in the School of Sacred Embodiment is about fierce love, and that is taking place on October 23rd. In this Fierce Love Workshop, we’re going to talk about how to be a deeply loving, compassionate person who also has boundaries and is able to stand for what they believe in through their values and through their priorities, to be a contributor to collective joy, healing, and liberation, like all things we do here in the School for Sacred Embodiment. So, if that’s something that you’re interested in, check out the workshop at untameyourself.com/workshops.
As well next week, I cannot wait for another repeat guest to join us, my friend, Marcia Baczynski. We are going to be talking about boundaries, monogamy, dating, and consent, and all kinds of juicy stuff related on that topic. So, for those of who love those conversations, you definitely do not want to miss it. That’s going to be episode number 403 and that’s it. I will see you, feel you, be here with you next week.